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Do you have any beef with teachers who teach little kids about transgenderism? - Results (94 votes)
Yes, i'm okay if they are of appropriate age but elementary school kids is NOT one of them
39.36%
37
Yes, i'm not okay with any teacher teaching about transgenderism to ANY AGE GROUP
35.11%
33
No, i agree that this is a good time to teach them about it
25.53%
24
It happened last year at Rocklin Academy Gateway when a teacher gave a lesson on transgenderism because a boy in the class is transitioning to a girl The California charter school and parents are now battling over whether the elsson was appropriate or if the kindergartnrs were too young to understand During the lesson on the second to last day before summer break, a teacher read 2 books "I am Jazz and The Red Crayon" both meant to explain transgender to children between 4 and 8 years old. But critics are calling this a "transition ceremony" and the teacher introduced the 5 y/o student to the class as a boy..the student then went into the bathroom and emerged dressed as a girl The teacher reintroduced her to the children and explained she was now a girl with a girl's name and was to be called that from now on. Parents said they had no idea about this lesson and weren't notified until a week later as they went to the Pacific Justice Institute and the California Family council to represent them Greg Burt of that council said "These kids who never struggled with their gender identity before are all of a sudden scared they could be turned into a boy" The teacher who read the book defended it and said "I'm s proud of my students, it was never my intent to harm any students but to help them through a difficult situation" But one parent said "My daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy" The district said the books were age appropriate and fell within their literature selection policy, unlike sex education, the topics of gender identity don't require priior parental notice The school also said that not reading it would put them at risk of discrimination and could expose them to a lawsuit But Rocklin Academy said there will be a policy change and said outside books will now be approved by administration first. Legislative manager and Equality California, Jo Michael who is transgender said early education is key to helping children understand transgenderism and said "Most people have a sense of their gender identity at age 3 or 4. It's important to note that other students really do need to have that opportunity to engage and hear from a trans student" Do you have any beef with teacher kids about transgenderism? The Kindergarten Teacher - http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/22/19/4377F3F200000578-4813520-image-m-51_1503424841980.jpg Outraged Conservative crybaby soccer moms - http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/22/18/4377F3D300000578-4813520-image-a-43_1503424109091.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/22/18/4377F3EE00000578-4813520-image-a-39_1503423823297.jpg The books - http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/22/18/4377F3C200000578-4813520-image-a-41_1503423928499.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/22/18/4377F3C600000578-4813520-image-a-42_1503423939612.jpg
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RyanBraun8 posted...
Hoozah123 posted...You don't teach sex ed to a bunch of little brat. Why would you teach transgender to a bunch of brats? Those are high school age learning. Exactly the same thing.
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So kids can learn about an immortal being who will send them to a fiery pit of death forever if they don't follow X rules or aren't the right kind of person (like folks being trans or gay), but not about what a bad touch is, what being gay actually means or why a trans person isn't akin to a predator?
And you say the left are converting people? |
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Gobstoppers12 posted...
Prototypic posted..."I don't understand transgenderism, and I have to protect my kids from understanding it!" There's a kid in class who has come out as transgendered, meaning the issue is already out there, and being kids, they are inevitably going to ask questions. I think they both need and deserve a kid-oriented explanation, glazing over some details to paint a more general picture, and I'm going to need something more specific that people find objectionable before I get outraged. Acknowledging something that exists and that is immediately present within the children's lives doesn't seem particularly scandalous to me.
Thus I became a madman.
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Prototypic posted...
"I don't understand transgenderism, and I have to protect my kids from understanding it!" Kindergartners barely understand what 2+2 is. Transgenderism is a whole hell of a lot more complicated than that. The last thing we need to to preoccupy children's minds around a complex issue that involves a relatively minute number of people when they're still trying to learn to color inside the f***ing lines. |
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Prototypic posted...
There's a kid in class who has come out as transgendered ...How old are these kids? Would it be okay to tell that kid's parents that they should stop encouraging that behavior? I mean, when I was 6 years old or so, I went through a brief phase where I was fascinated with girls--to the level that I'd want to play as Princess Leia when we'd play Star Wars (acting out, not with action figures) and the like...now, if a "progressive and inspiring" parent had seen me doing something like that, I shudder to think that they might have picked it up and ran with it. I'm skeptical of kids who 'come out' as transgender before puberty even hits.
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kids are too f***ing impressionable...
that teacher should be fired immediately. This subversive bulls*** needs to stop. |
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The same base of parents who think the kids can't handle learning that some folks are different but that doesn't mean to mistreat, hate or fear them, are the ones who think kids that age should handle guns and learn about religious afterlife mythology and hellfire dimensions where Timmy or Tammy go if they don't obey the random rules of X church.
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cyanide_suicide posted...
Kindergartners barely understand what 2+2 is. Transgenderism is a whole hell of a lot more complicated than that. The last thing we need to to preoccupy children's minds around a complex issue that involves a relatively minute number of people when they're still trying to learn to color inside the f***ing lines. We expose children to far more complex ideas, and as a society seem A-OK with allowing them to be indoctrinated into their parents beliefs and ways of thinking, until it's something we don't approve of, and then it's too much and they can't handle it. Gobstoppers12 posted... ...How old are these kids? Would it be okay to tell that kid's parents that they should stop encouraging that behavior? Again, unless there's actually evidence of the parents doing that, I'll save my outrage.
Thus I became a madman.
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TundraKing87 posted...
The same base of parents who think the kids can't handle learning that some folks are different but that doesn't mean to mistreat, hate or fear them, are the ones who think kids that age should handle guns and learn about religious afterlife mythology and hellfire dimensions where Timmy or Tammy go if they don't obey the random rules of X church. But you see that is just their parents loving them and saving their sinful lil souls!!
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The problem here is that the method of doing it was too showy and whatnot. A far simpler explanation would have been better. Kids are usually really understanding of this sort of thing, far moreso than adults.
ZSB: We look so much better in a dress than you.
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honestly, while i would normally be hesitant to introduce children to such a complicated issue so early, the fact that one of their classmates was transitioning makes this explanation timely and necessary, given that this is a kindergarten teacher we're talking about i'm going to make the assumption that this was a watered down explanation suitable for small children so i think i'll save my concern until someone present evidence to the contrary.
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1. "Swapping" in kindergarden is either weird or borderline child negligence. The result of failed parenting in both cases.
2. Encouraging such an event in a public educational facility has a drastic effect on the whole group, and should be discussed beforehand with the parents. 3. "Transgenderism" is a theme that shouldn't be part of education unless the people deliberately choose it (much like religion). Not in kindergarden or not later. 4. The fact that someone wrote a children's book about this, was able to sell it, and in fact used as teaching material is a good reflection of the twisted morals of today's "modern" society...
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Gobstoppers12 posted...
Yeah, they might have done something as awful as letting you present as a girl for a bit if you wanted to and then let you go back to presenting as a boy when you felt uncomfortable as a girl. Oh the abject horror!! When I was 6 there was a girl in my class who presented as a boy in class. We were introduced to that as "Kids, from now on Jane will John, okay? Sometimes girls want to be boys and sometimes boys want to be girls and they can do that and it's fine, and John wants to be a boy now. Please treat him nicely." We got that no problem. Jane was John for a bit until Jane decided she was more comfortable as a girl than a guy. She's a really cool person now. Ah, the joys of going to a religious private school.
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the final bahamut posted...
Yeah, they might have done something as awful as letting you present as a girl for a bit if you wanted to and then let you go back to presenting as a boy when you felt uncomfortable as a girl. The problem is that it's disturbingly 'trendy' to have a trans child nowadays. I feel uneasy when a very young child 'chooses' to transition, because that's high-order decision making from a child whose high-order thinking has not been fully nurtured and developed. Imagine making a long-term, life-changing identity decision when you're in kindergarten. My present-day self would be grateful to anybody who talked me out of it.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...
the final bahamut posted...Yeah, they might have done something as awful as letting you present as a girl for a bit if you wanted to and then let you go back to presenting as a boy when you felt uncomfortable as a girl. i'm concerned by your use of the word "trendy" in this particular context, especially given the subject matter, is there any proof that this has suddenly become "popular" for lack of a better word, or is this just your belief? |
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Tamamo-no-mae posted...
i'm concerned by your use of the word "trendy" in this particular context, especially given the subject matter, is there any proof that this has suddenly become "popular" for lack of a better word, or is this just your belief? I dunno. http://images.indianexpress.com/2016/12/natgeo-480.jpg?w=480 Call it a hunch.
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Gobstoppers12 posted...
Tamamo-no-mae posted...i'm concerned by your use of the word "trendy" in this particular context, especially given the subject matter, is there any proof that this has suddenly become "popular" for lack of a better word, or is this just your belief? it's national geographic, they're hardly Teen or Vogue. |
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When I was in school(8th grade), we had to get a permission slip signed by our parents when we started getting taught about the reproductive system in health class.. If we didn't get it signed, we had to sit in study hall while the rest of that class was learning about it.. There were 2 kids whose parents wouldn't sign..
Crazy how times have changed.. |
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I think we need our children a bit more credit than that around "complex" things... Other nations teach about sexuality as early as 4 and they seem fine. Kids are naturally curious and I'd rather have someone be introduce to the fluidity of sexual identity in a positive and learning environment. When kids are curious and we shut down those conversations, we implicitly give message about what is taboo, not to bring up, etc.
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whobdatboi posted...
Kids are naturally curious and I'd rather have someone be introduce to the fluidity of sexual identity in a positive and learning environment. When kids are curious and we shut down those conversations, we implicitly give message about what is taboo, not to bring up, etc. As someone who disagrees with the statement of "gender fluidity", I bring up the same points as a pro. Like it or not, being trans is still a non-normative behaviour... And we shouldn't teach kids to embrace such things. The "positive learning environment" would teach them to handle it on face value: a quirk that affects a small % of our population, an attribute we have to accept and learn to handle without reinforcing it.
I haven't lost an arm, brother. It is right over there.
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there needs to be a childrens book for this
but i bet half those kids have seen clips from a R Rated movie on youtube or something already that is the thing in the modern world kids with google can see anything and we have to deal with that we cant stop them from seeing it so the only option is explain things at younger ages
3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
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Namur posted...
whobdatboi posted...Kids are naturally curious and I'd rather have someone be introduce to the fluidity of sexual identity in a positive and learning environment. When kids are curious and we shut down those conversations, we implicitly give message about what is taboo, not to bring up, etc. So because I don't believe we'll convince each other's view on gender, let me just go with this - how do you teach kids NOT to embrace something and tell them to accept it at the same time. Let's say your kid is the one affected by this small "quirk", why wouldn't you want them to embrace themselves fully for who they are? Should someone born with some sort of physical deformity that only effects a small % of the population not love themselves fully? |
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whobdatboi posted...
Look... It'd be fun to have a decent and intelligent conversation about this but the platform literally makes it impossible. Even for a simple response I'd have to tiptoe around unwritten biased moderation rules and flex my vocabulary to convey practical facts without running into the usual instant-delete terms. Let me just sum it up like this: IF someone is born or meets "specials" handling them normally (tolerance) and thinking them normal is not the same... While reinforcement and support is yet another matter. You'd teach you children to help a blind person right? To give him / her a seat or help him / her get to the other side of the street. You acknowledge his / her difference and treat him / her differently. You'll not advise your children to try out living like a blind or teach them braille because they might go blind... You'd teach your kid to accept and help their alcoholic grandfather yet advise them against drinking... And when old Grandpa John asks them kindly to buy him another bottle of vodka you politely refuse. You tolerate and help a handicapped / deviant person to live or to "heal" (rejoin a normative society) if the chance comes up... You do not think that they are the same as "others" and you do not try to make your children (especially not young one) join them...
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- Captain Alessio Cortez, Crimson Fists - |
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Namur posted...
whobdatboi posted... And here is the big piece of disagreement that we'll probably never agree with. Let's take the person with no sight and the person with substance abuse. As society, the behavior of someone with no sight is not seen as deviant but as a matter of who they have to "be" because of being blind - you don't say, tolerate that blind person for using a cane to get around, we can say embrace that person with no caveat. With the person who abuses alcohol, we can hear something like, you can love the person but not their action because substance abuse is seen as deviant. So its a matter of seeing transgenderism as "deviant" behavior vs. who they are. Here's the harmful piece, as a kid who identifies as transgender, if you treat it as deviant, no matter how much tolerance you show, they will most likely internalize it as a bad thing. If its who they are, then you're trying to change something that is who they are at the core - which we know can lead to some very serious scarring, etc. If it is a "choice/fad/etc", what great harm in society will being a transgender have? |
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@whobdatboi I took the two examples to avoid the never resolving argument of "born with it vs. learned" when it comes to gender / sexuality divergence.
Apart from our obvious disagreement, most of it boils down to the last two questions. 1. I personally do not have such a huge care for "internal scarring". People carry around all kinds of baggage. Everyone has varying degrees of "the world hates me" feelings. The difference between suicidal people and the ones powering through it is simple attitude and willpower. You cannot teach the world to treat everyone as a precious glass figure, but you can very well harden them. And this isnt the "We are just like you and proud of it!" motto but the "We know who / what we are and we don't need others to tell us!" one. 2. The harm is real. In the past 10-20 years thanks to the increase in relevance of LGBTQ+ our vocabulary changed, (hate) laws changed, science was thrown out of the window, social issues never once thought of surfaced and the tried and honed ideas of conformity / tradition became hateful or obsolete under the boots of unreachable buzzwords like "diversity", "equality" or "progressive"... The consequences are already palpable if you compare nations / continents, but this would only lead deeper into the rabbit hole of my ideas about the ongoing demographic race conflict.
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Namur posted...
@whobdatboi I took the two examples to avoid the never resolving argument of "born with it vs. learned" when it comes to gender / sexuality divergence. 1.) Interesting take if not a bit offensive i.e. those coming back having suffered the war just needed a simple attitude and willpower to get over PTSD?. 2.) LGBTQ + have always existed and in other societies, not just tolerated but integrated. You are talking about the response to the increasing relevance/acceptance (and also backlash) of LGBTQ+. I'm talking about what is the general harm of someone's sexual identity/expression in society? I mean you can make argument about harm of alcoholism i.e. drunk driving, lower productivity, etc. |
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AceMos posted...
namur science tells us transgender is something a person is born with so no science is not thrown out the window You want to tell me that there is a general way to determine whether a newborn is transgender / gay / bi etc. is? And that the diversification / disconnection of sexes and genders is actually based on this? Moreover that the whole 2-12% the transgenders represent IS in fact well established as a birth anomaly? This would solve as many problems as it'd create but i am pretty sure that this isn't the case (yet). Even the collection of empirical data for such a study could potentially cause an aproar... Not to mention catchphrases like "Sex is a spectrum" or "Gender is a social construct"...
I haven't lost an arm, brother. It is right over there.
- Captain Alessio Cortez, Crimson Fists - |
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Way to ignore the past. The Greeks and Romans were all about the gay sex. Trans culture has been prevalent in Native American, Japanese and Hindu cultures for ages, not to mention the obvious intersex nature of certain Greek gods, such as Hermaphroditus.
ZSB: We look so much better in a dress than you.
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you brought up science and science tells us male and female brains operate differently a transgenders brain does not match there physical body
but you have made it clear you hate the LGBT community
3 things 1. i am female 2. i havea msucle probelm its hard for me to typ well 3.*does her janpuu dance*
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@whobdatboi
1. They needed that "before" the conflict... Ptsd is mostly handled by dis- and reassembly of will. You cannot use ductape, you have to reforge it. 2. This is the part where I'd mention ideas like darwinism, natural selection, main imperative... But this would either get me modded, or would lead me to the same road i mentioned. In short: the acceptance of LGBTQ+ and their members isn't really heard of in certain parts of the world. Their % shifts accordingly, and so does the raw demographic power too.
I haven't lost an arm, brother. It is right over there.
- Captain Alessio Cortez, Crimson Fists - |
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Namur posted...
@whobdatboi 1.) Let's take your word for it. You're saying a person just needed a simple attitude and will power to deal with the complex trauma of war like the other person is claiming? And that they can do this on their own? 2.) We're talking about a percentage of population identifying LGBTQ+. What is the harm if they cannot procreate (though LGBTQ+ folks do choose to have natural birth as well but we'll table that)? If anything, those who want children without pregnancy will often adopt, a benefit in society. I'm assuming this is where you were going with this but that's just my assumption. Apologies if you were saying/arguing something else. |
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Stop copy-pasting from the Daily Mail.
That aside... The Daily Mail posted... But one parent said "My daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy" See, I find this difficult to believe. I suspect what actually happened is that their daughter calmly, albeit maybe with a puzzled tone, told them what had happened that day, whereupon the parent started ranting and laying down the law about how the whole idea is bad and the teacher is a bad person and bad people like her want to turn "good girls like you" into boys because they're bad, and that was when the girl started crying and shaking. |
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TundraKing87 posted...
So kids can learn about an immortal being who will send them to a fiery pit of death forever if they don't follow X rules or aren't the right kind of person (like folks being trans or gay), but not about what a bad touch is, what being gay actually means or why a trans person isn't akin to a predator? No, religious teaching isn't allowed in public schools. |
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Gobstoppers12 posted...
the final bahamut posted...Yeah, they might have done something as awful as letting you present as a girl for a bit if you wanted to and then let you go back to presenting as a boy when you felt uncomfortable as a girl. That exact same argument was used about homosexuality when I was a youngin and it was just as much bulls*** then as it is now. Here's the thing you may have missed in my little story: it's not a long-term or a life changing decision. Jane became John and then went back to being Jane again no problem. Because you don't start hormones until you're much older and you certainly don't get surgery until much later. A kindergarten kid is just choosing what to present as for now. It's not a commitment.
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Namur posted...@whobdatboi
1. They needed that "before" the conflict... Ptsd
Are you saying that people get ptsd because they had the wrong attitude/willpower?
Because holy s*** would that be an obscenely ignorant thing to say. I mean that's like going out to seriously argue that people who get teen pregnant should have just shot down any storks they saw. Or not gone into cabbage fields, if you're French.
2. This is the part where I'd mention ideas like darwinism, natural selection, main imperative... But this would either get me modded, or would lead me to the same road i mentioned. In short: the acceptance of LGBTQ+ and their members isn't really heard of in certain parts of the world. Their % shifts accordingly, and so does the raw demographic power too.
Okay, I'm calling it. Poe."The US military is not an effective proxy for humanity" ~ Folding Ideas
Faciendere id pro RAVzGobstoppers12 posted...Being a prepubescent child is difficult enough without being bombarded by a bunch of hyper-complex and confusing issues like transgenderism.
It's normal to be taught about being gay and lesbian at primary school here (equiv of elementary school). Our kids aren't messed up or confused.
Transgenderism may be more confusing to grasp, but just understanding that some people are isn't harmful.DS - (ix)
I helped with a game: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/world-war-b/id1096584665TundraKing87 posted...Folks claimed kids can't handle complex concepts like what it means to be transgender or gay. They didn't say "In school"
If a kid can learn about sins and hellfire on Sundays, they can learn that a kid with 2 mommies isn't a freak or dangerous during their weekday routine.
^ this.
While my kids haven't been thought about TG yet, just gay/lesbian/bi, they aren't confused by it and I don't think they would be confused by TG either... A few questions but they are fine with it, young kids just accept stuff. It's parents who have a problem with it that create confusion.DS - (ix)
I helped with a game: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/world-war-b/id1096584665OffDogs posted...How does a five-six year old know what they want their gender to be? Half the kids that age can't wipe properly yet.
I don't think they are asking them what they want their gender to be, any more than my kids were asked to identify whether they are gay or lesbian. It's about teaching them that these things exist and are acceptable, so they have some understanding and acceptance when the encounter people who are LGBT.DS - (ix)
I helped with a game: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/world-war-b/id1096584665OffDogs posted...How does a five-six year old know what they want their gender to be? Half the kids that age can't wipe properly yet.
This is a combination of projection, and just being so out of touch with how children are that it is completely laughable. I knew completely that I wanted to be a girl by age 5. I just didn't know it was possible to do so til much older.
I am just glad that we live in an age where trans kids feel like they can actually come forth with their feelings, and actually have real childhoods.ZSB: We look so much better in a dress than you.
I wouldn't mind being alone if I could stand my own company.
