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What should be done to Stone Mountain - Results (12 votes)
Leave it as is.
50%
6
Add additional carvings, especially ones related to civil rights
16.67%
2
Remove the confederate carving
8.33%
1
Remove the confederate carving and replace it with something else
16.67%
2
Other
8.33%
1
"There is no cloud. It's just someone else's computer"
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They should just cut the confederacy free. It was a mistake to ever let them back in the country. Should have freed the slaves, appropriated all the confederate wealth to pay for their relocation to other parts of America, and let the white southerners live as the third world country they always wanted to be. You can't civilize racists.
Disobedience is the stamp of the hero. -Ragnar Redbeard
Also, this is Kagata.. http://www.yescalifornia.org/ |
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Oh, and here is my contribution to the discussion.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/16/us/georgia-stone-mountain-outkast-confederate-monument/index.html
o d s d
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CoyoteTheGreat posted...
They should just cut the confederacy free. It was a mistake to ever let them back in the country. Should have freed the slaves, appropriated all the confederate wealth to pay for their relocation to other parts of America, and let the white southerners live as the third world country they always wanted to be. You can't civilize racists. Should have just let Sherman burn the entirety of it to the ground and let the freed slaves rebuild whatever they wanted from the ashes.
"If you wish to converse with me define your terms"
Voltaire |
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yars posted...
i don't really get the anti-confederacy backlash that has sprung up in just the last few years. the war ended 150 years ago, and for some reason people are now suddenly up in arms about confederate flags and monuments. Many of these have been erected in recent years. Thirty-five in North Carolina since 2000. Do the people that continue to build Confederate idols also need to "get over it?" |
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ScazarMeltex posted...
CoyoteTheGreat posted...They should just cut the confederacy free. It was a mistake to ever let them back in the country. Should have freed the slaves, appropriated all the confederate wealth to pay for their relocation to other parts of America, and let the white southerners live as the third world country they always wanted to be. You can't civilize racists. I can get behind this idea. I've grown to like the south (it's a lot more diverse than Maine) but I can't stand the people that show pride in what decent people would be ashamed of.
Cuz my life is dope and I do dope ****
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Oh sure, let's remove it. Actually let's whitewash all historical artifacts. If it's offensive, it's officially not part of history anymore. We can blow Washington's face off Mount Rushmore too while we're at it because that guy owned slaves too. Actually, I am literally going to burn every $20 in my wallet right now because it has Andrew Jackson's face on it, f*** that crazy a******.
No, but seriously I think of Stone Mountain in particular as a piece of art, an artifact of history. If the men depicted there are remembered as villains, so be it. Maybe there is some value in keeping a huge memorial of these men who fought so hard for such an unworthy cause. It does not have to be a proud reminder. Confederate memorials remind me of the human element of war, that everyone involved was a real thinking feeling human being, and perfectly convicted in what they stood for. Someone need not be a red-eyed devil to defend something as horrible as slavery--to de-humanize them and dismiss them as lunatic murderous radicals is just an invitation for us to forget an important lesson in history. These men, with their completely contrary ideals to modern understanding of civics, were totally respected by both sides of the war front in their time, they were some of the most educated and honored people before the war even started. Civil War monuments in general are a reminder of the complete waste and disaster of this kind of conflict. Unfortunately a lot of people forget this message--on both sides. So probably I would support some "re-dressing" of the monument--not altering the carving, but changing the context some (with the plaques and details in the surrounding park). yars posted... i don't really get the anti-confederacy backlash that has sprung up in just the last few years. the war ended 150 years ago, and for some reason people are now suddenly up in arms about confederate flags and monuments. It's because in the past 10-20 years or so, the meaning changed. When I was growing up, you'd see confederate flags on t-shirts and old beat up mud trucks. It was more of a symbol of the South in general. Only rednecks would have this stuff. (rednecks aren't inherently racist or bad people... this is a separate debate) But in recent years there was more of this white supremacist thing going on with it. I didn't notice it (since the confederate flags were always around) until I found out people outside of the South were sporting confederate flags. And all these recent confederate monuments erected. It's like, WTF? So basically racist people took it over. Before any of you say, "It was always racist, everyone who uses a racist symbol is racist" or any such stuff--I just want to point out, the racist message wasn't always necessarily there. I would compare it to a Christmas tree (yeah bear with me for a second). Now, most intelligent people out there know that the Christmas tree is some kind of pagan ritual with the winter solstice and whatnot that more or less got appropriated into Christmas. Modern culture says "whatever" and we put the trees up anyway, and we do all sorts of other weird tradition s*** that lost its original meaning. Now imagine in 300 years when UltraPublicans take control of the White Fortress, they could start murdering people in their homes for putting up these pagan icons, and what could we even say in our defense? "Yes, we always knew the Christmas tree was a pagan icon, but it wasn't really really a pagan icon..." We'd sound just as crazy as rednecks today, even if what we said was true.
- ThanatosMace
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There's a difference between a historical artifact and a lionizing effigy to serve as a memorial to people that fought for abhorrent causes and carried ideals that s should be completely anathema to any member of out society with even the slightest sliver of basic decency. If you want to make the case for relocating most of these plaques and statues to a museum that's be one thing but they definitely don't belong in government buildings, college campuses, or public spaces. Also, I would argue the fact that these monuments allegedly "humanizes" them only further illustrates how monstrously vile yet mundanely banal they were. Also, what other country maintains monuments to treasonous war criminals from a civil war centuries in its past? I'm asking this one legitimately curious.
I voted "other" in favor of blasting it to rubble, by the way. Any value as "art" is tainted by the tribute to the repugnant beliefs the men carved into it's face fought for, regardless of how zealously they personally believed them. These aren't the men who deserve to have their likeness preserved for posterity.
This world...IS ROTTEN!
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MalOptver9 posted...
Also, what other country maintains monuments to treasonous war criminals from a civil war centuries in its past? Sort of. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Oliver_Cromwell,_Westminster
Posted with GameRaven 3.2.1
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Re: Thanatos
From the Mississippi Declaration of Causes: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. That's what I think of when I see the Confederate flag and when someone says "heritage not hate" I can only assume that's the heritage they're referring to.
Cuz my life is dope and I do dope ****
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coruptednumber posted...
Oh, and here is my contribution to the discussion. Goddamn, beaten by 15 hours.
"Another strange thing about UFOs is that they all look like ordinary film exposure problems and they only appear behind the very stupid."
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ThanatosMace posted...
No, but seriously I think of Stone Mountain in particular as a piece of art, an artifact of history. The thing about Stone Mountain in particular is that it wasn't finished until 1972. There's probably people on this board older than the completed monument. It being big and carved in stone doesn't necessarily make it historically significant. I mean, if anything the historical significance would seem to me to be that a governor in the 1960's thought it was a good idea to spend taxpayer money finishing a Confederate war memorial commissioned by an arguably white supremacist group for the express purpose of showing the Confederate cause to be the right and just one, despite the loss of the war. I mean, I'm not saying we blow the thing off the face of the mountain, but it's true causes, context, and intent should be clearly understood and displayed.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana. |
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Three Stacks should absolutely be added.
Food for thought: http://time.com/4394274/iraq-kadhim-al-jabbouri-saddam-hussein-statue-toppled-baghdad/ The guy who climbed Saddam's statue regrets it. Auschwitz stands. I think we do ourselves a disservice by severing our connection to the past by destroying relics. Imagine how amazing it would be to go to Tabriz and see bhuddist statues next to a Christian church - in a Muslim nation and in the land of fire worshippers. I would like to believe that we are not so susceptible to outside influences that we are still relying on statues to spread messages. We should build in a way that creates the most compelling and engaging form of interaction with our past, present, and future possible. Where applicable statues should be moves from city centers and capitol grounds to a place, but not destroyed. Erasing the monuments entirely is a useless form of catharsis.
Congratulations on the dead boss! But sorry you had to get a promotion. - The Man in The Hat
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BigRedRacer posted...
xerofx posted...Auschwitz stands. http://travelbluebook.com/holocaust-concentration-camps-preserved-sites/ The point is that preserving these things can be about remembering a trauma so as not to repeat it.
Congratulations on the dead boss! But sorry you had to get a promotion. - The Man in The Hat
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Y'see I keep hearing about "Auschwitz is still open!" as an argument. Is Auschwitz ran by Nazis? Do they make pilgrimages out there and talk about how it's a part of their heritage? Not trying to be a dick, but I feel like confederate statues weren't put in place to be mocked or as a reminder of our evil past.
"Man, I must have been too busy or something that I didn't even know Mardis Gras was going on this past Monday" --WizardofHoth
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RockoisonSaturn posted...
Y'see I keep hearing about "Auschwitz is still open!" as an argument. Is Auschwitz ran by Nazis? Do they make pilgrimages out there and talk about how it's a part of their heritage? Not trying to be a dick, but I feel like confederate statues weren't put in place to be mocked or as a reminder of our evil past. right, its not an equivalency that works for me, and i don't imagine it's persuasive to most others as well.
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Rocko, I think that's a valid point. I also don't think the Confederacy can be directly equivocated with Nazism. Even Ulysses Grant was a slave owner so it isn't as if everybody outside of the Confederacy was some kind of hero in terms of modern day ethical standards.
Congratulations on the dead boss! But sorry you had to get a promotion. - The Man in The Hat
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xerofx posted...
I think we do ourselves a disservice by severing our connection to the past by destroying relics. That's a good point and I agree with it fully, but we do have to take it alongside the fact that not everything with Lee's face on it is a relic. Reading the history of Stone Mountain, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing how it is a connection to our past.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana. |
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kozlo100 posted...
That's a good point and I agree with it fully, but we do have to take it alongside the fact that not everything with Lee's face on it is a relic. Reading the history of Stone Mountain, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing how it is a connection to our past. I think you are right on both counts here. I didn't realize how new Stone Mountain is until reading your post. In general I regard this as irrelevant bulls*** and not worthy of this close an examination. Hamilton County in Ohio has over 16% of its budget dedicated to the maintenance and upkeep of a stadium so that the public can watch black gladiators engage in armored combat 10 times a year. They are shutting down hospitals (health expenditures of 10%) that would mostly serve black people and other poor people. The NCAA relies on unpaid laborers (slaves?) to fill 100k seat stadiums (there are 8!) and most of the talent pool there, especially at the top end, is comprised of black people. The promises of revenue gains from these things are at best lies and at worst fraud. These are multibillion dollar enterprises with antitrust exemptions. And yet here we are ready to go to war over 6 foot statues and some engravings of people who have been dead for over a century. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/01/18/the-staggering-taxpayer-costs-of-paul-brown-stadium/ http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/common/pages/DisplayFile.aspx?itemId=6478107 https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/
Congratulations on the dead boss! But sorry you had to get a promotion. - The Man in The Hat
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perfusionman posted...
Just because some things suck even more doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to the ones that only mostly suck, xerofx Sure, but triage is important. Worrying about Confederate monuments is like trying to treat a cold in a patient who is also suffering from arterial bleeding.
Congratulations on the dead boss! But sorry you had to get a promotion. - The Man in The Hat
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xerofx posted...
perfusionman posted...Just because some things suck even more doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to the ones that only mostly suck, xerofx You're still trying to look at it from the perspective that only issue or scope of an issue can be handled at a time. There are ~350 million Americans, I'm sure if just some of them broke off into smaller groups with specific agendas, at least some of them MIGHT be able to find a reasonable solution to the problem they're focused on working on. You're looking at the issues by an analogy to an WE when it's more like an assembly line.
This world...IS ROTTEN!
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Mal and perf are missing the problem in that argument. The problem isn't that its a why are spending money sending men to space when we till haven't cure cancer issue. It's as xerofx puts it,
xerofx posted... And yet here we are ready to go to war over 6 foot statues and some engravings of people who have been dead for over a century. War, like the tango, takes two. which means that if there is no threat of war over public funding of sports franchises, then no one cares. But who are these f***ers that that are willing to go to war over the removal of some statues? In other words, its the people willing to go to war over the removal of these statues that are the ones in the wrong, not the people removing them.
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We have all these confederate monuments in America, how many do we even have for black liberation? It isn't just about history, these monuments are salt in the wound for a significant portion of Americans who are still being oppressed and terrorized to this very day.
Unless we have daily eggings and encourage people to come out and boo and jeer effigies of the evil Southerners represented on these statues, they have no reason to exist (And if we are going to do those things, we ought to put up some new statues of villainy for modern day confederates like Jeff Sessions who are currently engaged in crafting policies that attack black communities and disenfranchise them).
Disobedience is the stamp of the hero. -Ragnar Redbeard
Also, this is Kagata.. http://www.yescalifornia.org/ |
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xerofx posted...
perfusionman posted...Just because some things suck even more doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay attention to the ones that only mostly suck, xerofx Baltimore removed theirs in the dead of night with no debate a few days after Charlottesville. If other towns follow suit we could just rip the bandaid of and get to the bigger issues.
Cuz my life is dope and I do dope ****
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