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- "Liberals need to give up on identity politics"
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Said by the demographic of people voting against their economic interests because they culturally align with the republican party
CE's Resident Scotsman.
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NibeIungsnarf posted...
Also said by me who has never voted right-of center. I just find it funny because democrats distrust their own party to such a degree that they've now lost two important elections (in the UK and USA) because they failed to rally, whereas republicans hold so firmly to identity politics that they've shown an incredibly strong base regardless of what republican leaders do or say. Maybe liberals actually need to get better at identity politics.
CE's Resident Scotsman.
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Maybe liberals actually need to get better at identity politics. The Right was petrified by the message that was being sent during and after Vietnam. ((I hate these terms but I'll use it in this case)) The Left was correct in denouncing the war in Vietnam and had great numbers on their side, as they were the baby boomer gen. And so, The Right and as such, The Military Industrial Complex wing, used all of its connections and money to slowly and with great success turn and control the narrative of the American public. The left though greater in numbers has been sidelined for about 30 years now.
"Whatever the reason you're on Mars, I'm glad you're there, and I wish I was with you." ~Carl Sagan.
Currently playing: Flight Simulator X.~PC |
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The US has never dealt with the trauma of Vietnam, nor has it gotten over WWII.
If anything, it has made great strides against racism, particularly after The Civil War. But it seems some people are redirecting the loss of faith in this country in an age old debate that has already been decided.
"Whatever the reason you're on Mars, I'm glad you're there, and I wish I was with you." ~Carl Sagan.
Currently playing: Flight Simulator X.~PC |
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pinky0926 posted...
Maybe liberals actually need to get better at identity politics. No, Democrats need to (but won't) actually address economic woes. Trump won in large part because he promised radical economic measures, or other measures with supposed economic implications ("the wall"), which would either never actually take place or wouldn't bear fruit if they did. He appealed to white working-class desperation and class-induced racism. It was clear, on the other hand, that the DNC did not even pretend to make the economy its priority.
If you like sluggers to beat off your head, don't organize, all unions despise.
If you want nothing before you are dead, shake hands with your boss, look wise. |
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Godnorgosh posted...
pinky0926 posted...Maybe liberals actually need to get better at identity politics. I agree with this, but ultimately those people would have voted right anyway. The left failed to rally its own base, in part because of the reasons you listed.
CE's Resident Scotsman.
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thompsontalker7 posted...
Identity politics can be a decent cause to advocate. Please stop posting about politics
http://i.imgur.com/nGZeEqw.png
Do you really think you can beat me? |
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The Democrats used to position themselves as the party that supported the poor and working class of America, and the demographics overwhelming support that. When they decided to pivot to the party of the non-white poor and working classes, in a country that's over 60% white, they started losing winnable elections. Like in 2014 and 2016.
- The Admiral
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The Democrats have let the Republicans narrate the direction of the country and politics for way too long. Not saying that they haven't had any effect on the country, but that the political discourse tends to be centered around right wing talking points as opposed to something close to 50/50.
If you're not looking for any honest discussion, agreement, meeting halfway or middle ground, don't bother arguing with me. Selfish narcissists need not apply.
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The Admiral posted...
The Democrats used to position themselves as the party that supported the poor and working class of America, and the demographics overwhelming support that. When they decided to pivot to the party of the non-white poor and working classes, in a country that's over 60% white, they started losing winnable elections. Like in 2014 and 2016. I think Kineth is right, democrats seem to be reactionary currently.
CE's Resident Scotsman.
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Darkman124 posted...
The Admiral posted...they started losing winnable elections. Like in 2014 and 2016. This is certainly true, but not for the same reasons as of late. The Democrats ideologically should be the party that gets the votes of the white working class. If they decide to continue down this path, they're going to continue under-performing.
- The Admiral
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Kineth posted...
The Democrats have let the Republicans narrate the direction of the country and politics for way too long. Not saying that they haven't had any effect on the country, but that the political discourse tends to be centered around right wing talking points as opposed to something close to 50/50. imo it's not so much a matter of 'let' as 'has been unable to keep up with the funding supply'
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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Being the party of minorities and of the 'white working classes' should not be mutually exclusive and i would question the motivations of anybody who suggests otherwise
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Do you really think you can beat me? |
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NinjaBreakfast posted...
Being the party of minorities and of the 'white working classes' should not be mutually exclusive and i would question the motivations of anybody who suggests otherwise It's not even like white working class was actually driving support for Trump so the entire narrative is false anyway.
=E[(x-E[x])(y-E[y])]
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COVxy posted...
NinjaBreakfast posted...Being the party of minorities and of the 'white working classes' should not be mutually exclusive and i would question the motivations of anybody who suggests otherwise Didn't Trump actually win a larger share of women and minorities than Romney did? There's something seriously disturbing about that.
Physician [Internal Medicine]
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Ideally identity politics shouldn't be a base at all.
But considering like 3 of the 5 biggest issues in the country are based in identity politics it's kinda hard to do at the moment
we rich now but used to be slaves,we pushing whips now we used to be whipped,rockin chains when we used to be in 'em
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gamepimp12 posted...
Ideally identity politics shouldn't be a base at all. I agree with this part completely. Politics should be aligned along economic and ideological lines (and there should ideally be more than two party choices). The track records for having political parties aligned along racial lines has not been positive in most examples of world history, to say the least. But considering like 3 of the 5 biggest issues in the country are based in identity politics Don't agree with this part at all.
- The Admiral
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Coffeebeanz posted...
Yes, and that's at least partially because Clinton couldn't turn out minority voters the way Obama did. Which is another thing that's always ignored in these topics; the truly poor mostly don't vote, especially compared to affluent people, so even if someone won 100% of the vote they would be disproportionately representing upper class interests.
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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Balrog0 posted...
i'd like to think that early voting should resolve this but if the shenanigans we've seen in IN are any indication, that's being screwed with too in order to suppress poor voters.
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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gamepimp12 posted...
But considering like 3 of the 5 biggest issues in the country are based in identity politics it's kinda hard to do at the moment it's all a smokescreen, designed to hide the true issues of the country
A Green Butter Alt(TM)
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Coffeebeanz posted...
or the pretentious holier-than-thou a******s so libertarians |
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yea, they aren't that good at it. I had a small group on my facebook feed trying to whine about Trump and the whole "stop violence on many sides". I said fine, drop labels and let's look at what happened. Here's what I put:
how about we take out labels, call them A and B. A's show up to hang at a monument on a hill. Multiple B's show up and proceed to pepper spray A's. They bring out water balloons and water bottles filled with paint, piss, and s*** and throw them at A. They throw smoke bombs at A. Police allow B to do this for almost an hour. 1 A decides to pick up one of the smoke bombs and throws it back at B. Police then deem that a cause to make A's walk through a crowd of B's and leave. B's then taunt, continue to throw s*** at A's, push, and punch A's causing fights to break out. 1 sole A drives their car into a group of B's. Yea, there were "many sides" Once I took away the identity politics and made them see both sides, the debate stopped.
Tho I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil. For I'm the meanest mofo in the whole f'n valley
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BillyKidd posted...
yea, they aren't that good at it. I had a small group on my facebook feed trying to whine about Trump and the whole "stop violence on many sides". I said fine, drop labels and let's look at what happened. Here's what I put: Lmfao the utter state of you
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Do you really think you can beat me? |
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BillyKidd posted...
yea, they aren't that good at it. I had a small group on my facebook feed trying to whine about Trump and the whole "stop violence on many sides". I said fine, drop labels and let's look at what happened. Here's what I put: How about the bit of the analogy where Trump specifically calls out the Bs again and again and again and again for about a year straight at every opportunity and at the slightest provocation, but then the As go and do something as bad as this and suddenly he's the very model of reservation and not taking sides or calling out anyone specifically?
CE's Resident Scotsman.
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What, should he have taken the side of those throwing their piss and s*** like a bunch of animals at people they disagree with? Both sides had fault and he called out both sides for that fault.
Tho I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil. For I'm the meanest mofo in the whole f'n valley
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BillyKidd posted...
What, should he have taken the side of those throwing their piss and s*** like a bunch of animals at people they disagree with? Both sides had fault and he called out both sides for that fault. The obvious point is that there was a hate rally organised by white supremacists and a white supremacist tried to mow down an entire crowd of people, ISIS style, and yet for the first time ever Donald Trump has released a lukewarm, reserved statement, not singling out anyone in particular. You don't find this inconsistency strange, at the very least? This is the guy who is well known for going on impassioned tirades against anyone who wrongs him in the slightest way (even over the smallest of insults on social media), and yet an act of domestic terrorism kills an American and injures several others and his response is to pull his punches? This isn't about taking sides. It's about naming the motivations of what resulted in the death of a person. I'm very sure that if an act of Islamic terrorism had occured here, you'd full expect and congratulate Trump on calling it what it is: Islamic terrorism. You would have been critical if he had pulled an Obama and given a "Act of hatred" without specifying the motivations of the perp, I'm sure.
CE's Resident Scotsman.
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They should. As should the right. But that's the challenge with this sort of s***. Crap like race is a made up idea that only serves to divide people and give people an excuse to discriminate against others.
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TomNook20 posted...
Crap like race is a made up idea that only serves to divide people and give people an excuse to discriminate against others. Sure. But even if you got everybody to acknowledge this, to go through life colorblind from here on out, it would not cure the inequalities caused by race.
kin to all that throbs
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Antifar posted...
But even if you got everybody to acknowledge this, to go through life colorblind from here on out, it would not cure the inequalities caused by race. Because people have throughout history used race as a means to discriminate against others. |
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Darkman124 posted...
Kineth posted...The Democrats have let the Republicans narrate the direction of the country and politics for way too long. Not saying that they haven't had any effect on the country, but that the political discourse tends to be centered around right wing talking points as opposed to something close to 50/50. Mind if I ask you to expand on this?
If you're not looking for any honest discussion, agreement, meeting halfway or middle ground, don't bother arguing with me. Selfish narcissists need not apply.
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Kineth posted...
Mind if I ask you to expand on this? the growth of superPACs has opened up a really large gap in funding between GOP candidates and dem candidates when you look past the presidential election and into local elections generally what you see is that while dems can outfundraise small candidates (ex: ossoff) individually, they do so at the cost of being outraised in many other elections i tend to view this as the driver of GOP success on the state level (and thus in the house) they've been so effective at messaging on the state level that even guys like bob ehrlich and larry hogan could win governorships in maryland and romney/baker in massachusetts, two states who are among the strongest of democratic party strongholds you dont generally see dem governors infiltrating GOP core states and the money that has fueled both campaigns and messaging is why
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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BillyKidd posted...
yea, they aren't that good at it. I had a small group on my facebook feed trying to whine about Trump and the whole "stop violence on many sides". I said fine, drop labels and let's look at what happened. Here's what I put: You forgot the part where A's were doing Nazi salutes and chanting Nazi phrases. |
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Darkman124 posted...
they've been so effective at messaging on the state level that even guys like bob ehrlich and larry hogan could win governorships in maryland and romney in massachusetts, two states who are among the strongest of democratic party strongholds How much of this is about money in politics? I guess it's a brand thing, but also, the GOP can have guys like Huckabee and Romney in the same tent. Is there a comparable ideological spread on the democratic side? There's definitely a spectrum, but I think it's less broad
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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Balrog0 posted...
Is there a comparable ideological spread on the democratic side? There's definitely a spectrum, but I think it's less broad well kind of. there is joe manchin. dems support gay marriage and and racial equality as a platform but black communities generally do not support gay marriage (or much at all to help homosexuals) the dem tent is more of a mix of single issue voters in my mind. blacks tolerate the gay rights stance because they want the racial equality stance. and have no opinion on healthcare access or similar issues as we saw during obama admin, getting the candidates to march together is not easy
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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How exactly are identity politics supposed to work long term in a multi-cultural democracy? We are already beginning so see the Democrat party in California split by demographic.
"Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it." -Thomas Sowell
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tennisdude818 posted...
How exactly are identity politics supposed to work long term in a multi-cultural democracy? We are already beginning so see the Democrat party in California split by demographic. It doesn't, because racial groups are not monolithic. The great fantasy of the left has been that their platform will flourish based on the changing demographic trends in the U.S. -- namely the rapid growth in the Hispanic population. The problem is that Hispanics are not block Democratic voters, so relying on them as a substitute for policy is just another losing strategy.
- The Admiral
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The Admiral posted...
tennisdude818 posted...How exactly are identity politics supposed to work long term in a multi-cultural democracy? We are already beginning so see the Democrat party in California split by demographic. dems have also kinda stumbled by treating 'young womens issues' as 'womens issues' being the party of minorities and women is never going to work, which is why people like me were excited by bernie. the introduction of class as a discussion topic--rather than just ceding that battle to republicans--is something dems desperately need.
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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The Admiral posted...
. The problem is that Hispanics are not block Democratic voters, so relying on them as a substitute for policy is just another losing strategy. Well, I think a plurality of every ethnicity except for blacks are independents these day, but there are still a lot more democrats than republicans http://www.people-press.org/2015/04/07/party-identification-trends-1992-2014/#race
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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Darkman124 posted...
Kineth posted...Mind if I ask you to expand on this? Thank you for the information. I guess I wasn't aware of the impact of Super PACs. Did this start coming to bear post-Citizens United or has this been a thing for awhile?
If you're not looking for any honest discussion, agreement, meeting halfway or middle ground, don't bother arguing with me. Selfish narcissists need not apply.
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Kineth posted...
Thank you for the information. I guess I wasn't aware of the impact of Super PACs. Did this start coming to bear post-Citizens United or has this been a thing for awhile? citizens united simply took off existing limitations, but superPAC money has been driving politics for much longer than that
And when the hourglass has run out, eternity asks you about only one thing: whether you have lived in despair or not.
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- Boards
- Current Events
- "Liberals need to give up on identity politics"
- Boards
- Current Events
- "Liberals need to give up on identity politics"
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The Admiral posted...
tennisdude818 posted...How exactly are identity politics supposed to work long term in a multi-cultural democracy? We are already beginning so see the Democrat party in California split by demographic. Yeah they want to believe Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and Cubans will vote the same.
sig
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Dathrowed1 posted...
Yeah they want to believe Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and Cubans will vote the same. I mean, the differences between nationalities within ethnic groups are important, but there are really only a few notable exceptions to the "minorities are more democratic than republican" and its generally from immigrants fleeing communist dictatorships (cubans, vietnamese) and these differences go away for second-or-third generation immigrants
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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The Admiral posted...
gamepimp12 posted...Ideally identity politics shouldn't be a base at all. North Korea Health care Immigration Policing in America That's 2/4 and I just woke up from a nap and can't remember the 5th
we rich now but used to be slaves,we pushing whips now we used to be whipped,rockin chains when we used to be in 'em
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sktgamer_13dude posted...
BillyKidd posted...yea, they aren't that good at it. I had a small group on my facebook feed trying to whine about Trump and the whole "stop violence on many sides". I said fine, drop labels and let's look at what happened. Here's what I put: somehow, I think their words hurt less than actually hitting someone.
Tho I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil. For I'm the meanest mofo in the whole f'n valley
http://i.imgur.com/4GzX1.jpg |
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