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- Do any of the arguments against single payer healthcare even hold up
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"We're not a homogenous nation so it'll never work."
"Nation is too big." "Nothing's free." |
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Single payer = liberal idea
Liberals = Bad Therefore, Single payer = bad idea gg libs |
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Blue_Dream87 posted...
Single payer = liberal idea xD |
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Blue_Dream87 posted...
Single payer = liberal idea Wow this thread is done.
"You need to lay off the peanut-butthurt and u-jelly sandwiches" - Neon Octopus
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? Because built-up medical debt causes a weak economy by reducing the amount of money people have to spend, reducing profits and wages. One large issue effecting a large number of individuals will eventually result in collective economic problems. Whether or not it should be their responsibility alone by your logic is irrelevant to the reality that society is not purely individualist and collective issues affect everybody. I don't even need a pro-UHC argument on this. You're paying for other people's healthcare by getting health insurance, which you will require at some point in your life. You're also already paying through it because of public programs - public hospitals, for example, without which debt issues would potentially get even worse.
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? You already do.
kin to all that throbs
(edited 5 hours ago)quote
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? This argument always makes me laugh. Always good to know who doesn't understand how insurance works.
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? Why should I have to pay for roads if I don't drive? Why should I have to pay for wars I don't believe in? Why should I have to pay salaries of leaders I didn't vote for? Why should I pay for the courts if I never use them?
Jake Peralta: World's Grossest Pervert
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? You already pay for things for other people already with taxes. Why should healthcare be any different? |
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KiwiTerraRizing posted...
Why should I have to pay for roads if I don't drive? pretty good questions imho
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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Balrog0 posted...
KiwiTerraRizing posted...Why should I have to pay for roads if I don't drive? |
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I never hear any complaints from anyone from other nations that have it in place about it. Americans are afraid of it because it's change, but I'm personally convinced it's change for the better.
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https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/851-dark-aether |
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Healthcare spending in the US is the highest in the world. Single payer would have to be accompanied by rigorous regulations to manage costs. That's my layman's opinion.
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? Spoiler - the money you pay your insurance company is not reserved in a special pot just for you. You already pay for a portion of the healthcare of everyone on the same plan as you. |
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P4wn4g3 posted...
I never hear any complaints from anyone from other nations that have it in place about it. Americans are afraid of it because it's change, but I'm personally convinced it's change for the better. There are plenty of complaints, because every system has their pros and cons.
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
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Really, the only problem with trying to implement single payer in America right now is the absurdly high prices of medical care. We need to fix that problem before we can seriously discuss single payer.
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BLAKUboy posted...
Really, the only problem with trying to implement single payer in America right now is the absurdly high prices of medical care. We need to fix that problem before we can seriously discuss single payer. The argument is that a larger, national pool of patients would allow the government (the "single payer") more leverage and ability to negotiate down costs than existing private insurers.
kin to all that throbs
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I think single-payer is a bit of a distraction myself
clearly the issue with health care in the US is the lack of social support spending we have relative to other countries the social determinants of health, if you will
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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Balrog0 posted...
clearly the issue with health care in the US is the lack of social support spending we have relative to other countries Clearly there is more than one issue with healthcare in the US?
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
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scar the 1 posted...
P4wn4g3 posted...I never hear any complaints from anyone from other nations that have it in place about it. Americans are afraid of it because it's change, but I'm personally convinced it's change for the better. I didn't say otherwise. But it seems to be the best system in today's world.
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scar the 1 posted...
Clearly there is more than one issue with healthcare in the US? if you want to be pedantic, there is more than one issue with health care everywhere
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
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P4wn4g3 posted...
I didn't say otherwise. But it seems to be the best system in today's world. Maybe. I live in a country with socialized healthcare and while ideologically I'm all for it, it's a very broken system in its own right.
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
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Balrog0 posted...
scar the 1 posted...Clearly there is more than one issue with healthcare in the US? Nobody knew how complicated it is.
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
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pretty good questions imho The road one is pretty simple, really. You don't drive but you still benefit from other people driving, including those that ship your groceries and countless others. But the war one is a legit question. |
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Hillary Clinton's argument was
"well it would be too hard to do it all over, therefore we should just marginally improve the current system because then at least everyone will be covered* " * = by covered she means in a situation where they still have to fork out huge amounts of money and struggle to pay for their basic healthcare, but now they are at least "covered" Oh and another thing, everyone then gets forced to pay money to the health insurance corporations that donated to her campaign.... hmmm I wonder why?
I may not go down in history, but I will go down on your sister.
(edited 5 hours ago)quote
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DevsBro posted...
pretty good questions imho Same argument could be made. America's military might is a big factor in all the favorable trade deals they make, which citizens benefit from. Not to mention that the military industrial complex in itself generates a lot of jobs, technology, etc.
Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.
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DevsBro posted...
The road one is pretty simple, really. You don't drive but you still benefit from other people driving, including those that ship your groceries and countless others. But I also suffer the consequences of those roads, like the risk of death due to cars, pollution from emissions, and a style of development that necessitates longer travels distances than might be socially optimal if non-drivers didn't pay for roads.
He would make his mark, if not on this tree, then on that wall; if not with teeth and claws, then with penknife and razor.
(edited 5 hours ago)quote
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Same argument could be made. America's military might is a big factor in all the favorable trade deals they make, which citizens benefit from. Not to mention that the military industrial complex in itself generates a lot of jobs, technology, etc. Could be made but would serve no purpose. Nobody can deny that they benefit from roads (unless they're just stupid), but people can definitely deny that any given war will benefit them, which is likely the reason or at least a reason they don't believe in it. I suppose you could ask why people should have to pay for particular roads they don't benefit from but that kind of thing is so fine-grain that proving they don't benefit from a particular road would be a really tedious task and likely wouldn't result in enough of a tax cut to be worth it. So I guess that one wouldn't be a bad question either, just one that wouldn't really be worth following up on. |
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KiwiTerraRizing posted...
Why should I have to pay for roads if I don't drive? Ever buy something from a store? It got there via roads. Ever buy something online? It was transported via roads at one point or another.
Sweet dreams are made of cheese
Who am I to diss a brie? |
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Try it out in big states like California, New York, and Illinois
If it doesn't work there it won't work nationally.
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Damn_Underscore posted...
Try it out in big states like California, New York, and Illinois It will never work in those states. |
But I also suffer the consequences of those roads, like the risk of death due to cars, pollution from emissions, and a style of development that necessitates longer travels distances than might be socially optimal if non-drivers didn't pay for roads. Hm, good point. |
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Damn_Underscore posted...Try it out in big states like California, New York, and Illinois You seem to be against the idea entirely, but the fact is that if it doesn't work in those states then it literally cannot work nationally.
Shenmue II = best game of all time
Shenmue = 2nd best game of all time |
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Damn_Underscore posted...
SSJ-Spiderman posted...Damn_Underscore posted...Try it out in big states like California, New York, and Illinois Exactly. |
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BlackDruidLOL posted...
Everyone could have cheap healthcare if we took away from the military budget just saiyan Not even close. |
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Damn_Underscore posted...SSJ-Spiderman posted...Damn_Underscore posted...Try it out in big states like California, New York, and Illinois Well you can't just say it won't work, you have to try it. And no one who currently supports universal health care in the US will agree with you unless you try it.
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The only US Right Wing merits that have any legitimacy at all are all Muslim related. And they're still partially wrong, but the left is even more wrong when it comes to that.
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The only sustainable and effective solution is to invest heavily in automating healthcare so that procedures and diagnoses are a fraction of their current cost. There's no feasible way to pay for everyone's healthcare through taxation - it can't last because there's not enough money to do it.
And if we try to pay for more people to become doctors and nurses and hospital technicians and the like, we'll need far too many people and resources to be tied up in an inefficient and deprecated system that relies on human labor. This puts us in a position where we have too much invested to actually want a healthier population rather than a population that is merely treating away symptoms. Because if we are heavily invested in having the government pay people to provide healthcare, what happens when people get healthier over time as medicine progresses? We lose a major sector of employment. So this introduces incentives to treat symptoms rather than illnesses and diseases. That's not a sane and safe strategy for an advanced species. We need to invest in infrastructure that can attend to human medical needs without the need for human labor. IE machines and software. |
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Why do we have to try something we know won't work?
Alaska can try it if they want. Probably one of the most RINO states in the nation and they barely have any people anyway. I'd say Hawaii could try it too, but they have way too many homeless people. I think Hawaii might be the worst states to try it in actually, even worse than California or Texas. |
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A more apt question would be do any of the argument for single payer hold up.
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Gojak_v3 posted...
A more apt question would be do any of the argument for single payer hold up. Most of them don't tend to be grounded in reality. |
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Gojak_v3 posted...
A more apt question would be do any of the argument for single payer hold up. Yes. Next question.
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shockthemonkey posted...
Gojak_v3 posted...A more apt question would be do any of the argument for single payer hold up. What arguments are those? |
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If a state like Illinois tried to do universal health care then I agree it would have a 99% chance of failure
But if it was a national program such as Medicare for all tried in one of those states it might work and it might not
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
Why should I have to pay for somebody else's healthcare? Because its cheaper to buy everyone's + yours than paying "just" for yours right now. It's the difference between you buying a soda at a gas station for $2.00, or someone else buying the bulk pack at Costco and selling/splitting it to everyone interested for $0.60. But really, that's overly simplistic, because you already do pay for other's healthcare. When someone defaults on their medical debt, the cost gets shifted to the rest. The product of today's healthcare is the sheer number of defaults that keep shifting onto this f***ed up Jenga tower.
"He has two neurons held together by a spirochete."
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SSJ-Spiderman posted...
shockthemonkey posted...Gojak_v3 posted...A more apt question would be do any of the argument for single payer hold up. *Looks at other countries that successfully implemented single payer healthcare.*
You've fought the strongest, the second strongest, the fourth strongest, and the weakest master! Now you see the true advantage of being third strongest master!
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Damn_Underscore posted...
Try it out in big states like California, New York, and Illinois The problem with this is that state budgets have more constraints than the federal budget. It's harder for states to deficit spend, and sometimes conflicts with state constitutions.
kin to all that throbs
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- Boards
- Current Events
- Do any of the arguments against single payer healthcare even hold up
- Boards
- Current Events
- Do any of the arguments against single payer healthcare even hold up
P4wn4g3 posted...I never hear any complaints from anyone from other nations that have it in place about it. Americans are afraid of it because it's change, but I'm personally convinced it's change for the better.
As a Canadian, there definitely are complaints, but the only people who'd actually prefer US-style care are those with a lot of money, enough to go to the US for their care anyway, or those with a personal stake in how profitable the healthcare industry is."I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be."Transcendentia posted...The only sustainable and effective solution is to invest heavily in automating healthcare so that procedures and diagnoses are a fraction of their current cost. There's no feasible way to pay for everyone's healthcare through taxation - it can't last because there's not enough money to do it.
And if we try to pay for more people to become doctors and nurses and hospital technicians and the like, we'll need far too many people and resources to be tied up in an inefficient and deprecated system that relies on human labor. This puts us in a position where we have too much invested to actually want a healthier population rather than a population that is merely treating away symptoms.
Because if we are heavily invested in having the government pay people to provide healthcare, what happens when people get healthier over time as medicine progresses? We lose a major sector of employment. So this introduces incentives to treat symptoms rather than illnesses and diseases.
That's not a sane and safe strategy for an advanced species. We need to invest in infrastructure that can attend to human medical needs without the need for human labor. IE machines and software.Transcendentia posted...Transcendentia posted...
The only sustainable and effective solution is to invest heavily in automating healthcare so that procedures and diagnoses are a fraction of their current cost. There's no feasible way to pay for everyone's healthcare through taxation - it can't last because there's not enough money to do it.
And if we try to pay for more people to become doctors and nurses and hospital technicians and the like, we'll need far too many people and resources to be tied up in an inefficient and deprecated system that relies on human labor. This puts us in a position where we have too much invested to actually want a healthier population rather than a population that is merely treating away symptoms.
Because if we are heavily invested in having the government pay people to provide healthcare, what happens when people get healthier over time as medicine progresses? We lose a major sector of employment. So this introduces incentives to treat symptoms rather than illnesses and diseases.
That's not a sane and safe strategy for an advanced species. We need to invest in infrastructure that can attend to human medical needs without the need for human labor. IE machines and software.
Your flowchart is missing a s***load of intermediate steps.You've fought the strongest, the second strongest, the fourth strongest, and the weakest master! Now you see the true advantage of being third strongest master!Nobody cares proudclad. Find a new gimmick already.
SGT_Conti posted...P4wn4g3 posted...
I never hear any complaints from anyone from other nations that have it in place about it. Americans are afraid of it because it's change, but I'm personally convinced it's change for the better.
As a Canadian, there definitely are complaints, but the only people who'd actually prefer US-style care are those with a lot of money, enough to go to the US for their care anyway, or those with a personal stake in how profitable the healthcare industry is.
Yeah I'm sure our rich would be unhappy, but it seems to solve a lot more problems in countries that have it than just the cost of living. Healthier populations mean more people who can effectively do a job.Hive Mind of Dark Aether, the unofficial Metroid Social Private board.
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/851-dark-aetherP4wn4g3 posted...Healthier populations mean more people who can effectively do a job.
Also, rather than employers offering insurance coverage, they can just pay workers more.kin to all that throbsAntifar posted...P4wn4g3 posted...
Healthier populations mean more people who can effectively do a job.
Also, rather than employers offering insurance coverage, they can just pay workers more.
Hahaha as if they wouldEverything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.P4wn4g3 posted...Nobody cares proudclad. Find a new gimmick already.
Imagine literally thinking that the right thing to do is just a gimmick. What the f***?I'm very interested in actually debating the subject matter if anyone really thinks that autonomous healthcare isn't the future. It's the only way to really solve this issue. Anything else is just an unsustainable bandaid.Transcendentia posted...I'm very interested in actually debating the subject matter if anyone really thinks that autonomous healthcare isn't the future. It's the only way to really solve this issue. Anything else is just an unsustainable bandaid.
Is there in America an app so you can facetime with a doctor, so they can make quick diagnoses, renew prescriptions etc? Involving technology in healthcare doesn't have to mean automation.Everything has an end, except for the sausage. It has two.DragonGirlYuki posted...Universal healthcare will require higher taxes that people are not willing to pay.
I'm sure if people are healthier and the economy is better overall, the taxation won't be a huge issue. Obviously the government will have to figure out where the line is, but we have other countries we can use as a model. Some are pretty similar to us, such as Iceland.Hive Mind of Dark Aether, the unofficial Metroid Social Private board.
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/851-dark-aetherDragonGirlYuki posted...Universal healthcare will require higher taxes that people are not willing to pay.
Single payer will be cheaper than current taxes + current insurance rates for 90% of the country.
And that's what UHC should be, but American healthcare is a big race to see who can cause the biggest headache with the most expensive solution, so who the f*** knows what they'd come up with instead of single payer.Support local music.
But not if it sucks.shockthemonkey posted...Single payer will be cheaper than current taxes + current insurance rates for 90% of the country.
No, there are millions of Americans who would end up paying far more in taxes. Especially the self-employed who don't have health insurance.Transcendentia posted...self-employed who don't have health insurance.
At least they would get coverage then though. Right now if they got in an emergency, they would be stuck with the entire ridiculously overpriced bill in their own name.I may not go down in history, but I will go down on your sister.(edited 6 hours ago)quote- Boards
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- Do any of the arguments against single payer healthcare even hold up
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