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If the man doesn't want the child and she does, he still has to support it financially going forward.
If the man wants the child and she does not, tough shit he doesn't get to be a father. If they both want it, well that's awesome, congrats to the happy couple and their child. I'm very much pro-choice, but men really do get completely dicked over when it comes to the whole situation. I get that it is a woman's body, she has to go through much more than the man does when it comes to pregnancy, but if she gets to make the call that he does not get to be a father, than why does she also get to make the call that he has to be responsible for a child he does not want? It takes two to tango, as it were. They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. But if only one does? The one that gets to make the choice forces the other to regardless.
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"Freaking women, if you can even call them that. You're not a woman if you sleep around and have abortions. Period."
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It is precisely because it's a woman's body. Bodily integrity takes priority over financial status. Just as you wouldn't want a woman get to decide whether or not you are to have a vasectomy.
You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite} |
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the_NGW posted...
They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. Hey num num, the WOMAN IS ALREADY financially responsible by caring for the fucking child. If it was the man that had sole custody, then the woman would need to pay child support as well.
You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite} |
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
the_NGW posted...They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. That's why my sister's husband is solely taking care of his child with his ex while she literally does nothing, living entirely off of the child support he pays?
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So what you are suggesting is the chld support gets 100% substituted by the tax payer while the father has no rights to visit the child if he doesn't want to pay?
Okay, pretty sure that's what most pro-choice people would want anyways or at least can be rationally convinced of. Thing is you don't have to convince liberals with that proposal quite the opposite. But more like these guys here: Patriotwolf posted... Jx1010 posted...They only want equality when it favors them. Good luck!
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the_NGW posted...
That's why my sister's husband is solely taking care of his child with his ex while she literally does nothing, living entirely off of the child support he pays? The court is unaware that this is happening. Sue for sole custody.
You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite} |
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mortimerjames posted...
Child support is a separate issue and shouldn't be discussed in abortion debates. I was addressing a more broad spectrum than abortion.
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Triad posted...
It seems reasonable to have both parents be responsible after the birth, though, don't you think? If the man is forced into taking responsibility for a child he doesn't want then isn't it wrong that he can have the opportunity to have that child taken away from him if she doesn't want it?
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Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
It is precisely because it's a woman's body. Bodily integrity takes priority over financial status. Just as you wouldn't want a woman get to decide whether or not you are to have a vasectomy. That analogy makes no sense. There is no analogous relationship between a vasectomy and abortion/child support. If the topic was tubal ligation, then yes, a vasectomy is equivalent. But that's not the topic.
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex, so that argument doesn't float beyond extreme cases (say where a woman cheats on the husband and has the other guys kid).
People die when they are killed.
Among horse, Red Hare. Among men, Lu Bu. |
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Heineken14 posted...
the_NGW posted...If the man wants the child and she does not, tough shit he doesn't get to be a father. It is an entirely fair point. Woman wants to have child, man does not, too bad he is now responsible for another life even if only out of his pocket. Man wants to have a child, woman does not, too bad better try again another time, maybe that one will want to keep it.
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the_NGW posted...
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...the_NGW posted...They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. Honestly, that's your brother-in-law's fault. He should sue for sole custody and make the court aware of the situation. |
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monkmith posted...
father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex, so that argument doesn't float beyond extreme cases (say where a woman cheats on the husband and has the other guys kid). Mother contributed to making the kid, even if she doesn't want one. Could have used birth control, or just not had sex.
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the_NGW posted...
monkmith posted...father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex, so that argument doesn't float beyond extreme cases (say where a woman cheats on the husband and has the other guys kid). completely overlooking the fact that female birth control is much more damaging to the woman then a condom is to a man. she's also the one that has to put her health at risk and dedicate ~9 months of her life to growing the child, while the guy can fuck right off.
People die when they are killed.
Among horse, Red Hare. Among men, Lu Bu. |
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monkmith posted...
father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex Can the exact same argument not be made in the case of the woman? If she didn't want to be responsible for a child, she should have used a condom or just not had sex. Of course being pro-choice I disagree with that argument. A woman should be free to choose whether or not she wants to be a parent. But so should a man. A woman should never be forced to carry and raise a child she did not consent to having, and a man should never be forced to raise and finance a child he did not consent to having. We'd have far fewer broken children growing up without the love of two parents if consent to parenthood was a two-way street.
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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If men were the ones who got pregnant it would likely be reversed. As it is, men aren't the ones who have to actually deal with being pregnant, so no shit what a woman wants should trump what he wants.
"I'm a baby killer, baby killing makes me horny. Aliens inside me, gonna squash it like Sigourney" ~Get Dat Fetus, Kill Dat Fetus - Sextina Aquafina
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Heineken14 posted...
the_NGW posted...It is an entirely fair point. Great job arguing your point. monkmith posted... the_NGW posted...monkmith posted...father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex, so that argument doesn't float beyond extreme cases (say where a woman cheats on the husband and has the other guys kid). Mother contributed to making the kid, she is just as responsible as he is. And not having sex is still an option, is it not? lolife67 posted... BOTH are financially responsible for the child. That's equality. So ultimately the man is the only one that has zero say and has no input into actually being a father or not, being responsible or not, it is entirely in the woman's hands. She can leave him struggling financially, she can take away his chance at being a father, he..can shut the fuck up and do what is decided for him.
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Kradek posted...
As it is, men aren't the ones who have to actually deal with being pregnant, They do, however, have to deal with a woman that is pregnant.
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LawnNinja posted...
monkmith posted...father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex Well put. As I said, I am entirely pro-choice. However, if men are not allowed to choose to have a child the woman does not want, they should not be forced to care for a child they may not want. And I say this as someone that is at a point where we are looking to potentially having a child.
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the_NGW posted...
So ultimately the man is the only one that has zero say and has no input into actually being a father or not, being responsible or not, it is entirely in the woman's hands. She can leave him struggling financially, she can take away his chance at being a father, he..can shut the f*** up and do what is decided for him. Well, ideally, the man will have some input into the decision being made. But, yes, it's her body so her choice, ultimately. And, realistically speaking, it doesn't happen the way you describe, hence the number of single mothers out here. |
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the_NGW posted...
Kradek posted...As it is, men aren't the ones who have to actually deal with being pregnant, Which is mentally/emotionally stressful but not generally physically. Women deal with it mentally/emotionally AND physically. So, again, it isn't equal. |
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the_NGW posted...
and yet the immediate and eventual lifelong responsibilities fall far more heavily on the woman then the man. again, 9 months of health issues and lost wages.
People die when they are killed.
Among horse, Red Hare. Among men, Lu Bu. |
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Heineken14 posted...
the_NGW posted...If the man wants the child and she does not, tough shit he doesn't get to be a father. so its not his body, his sperm?
"This weapon, I am." - Paul Atreides
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the_NGW posted...
Kradek posted...As it is, men aren't the ones who have to actually deal with being pregnant, Uh not really. Do you know how many kids grow up without fathers? I don't know how they do it, but there seems to be a good portion of fathers who are able to just dip on mother & child forever without having any sort of negative repercussions. It's far easier for a father to abandon them than a mother to abandon them, especially since mothers tend to develop a stronger bond thanks to nature. But if the father is better qualified to raise the children then I say sure give him a fair shake at custody. It would probably be best to wait after the breastfeeding period if that's what she's going to do. Unless he wants to try and breastfeed it.
"I'm a baby killer, baby killing makes me horny. Aliens inside me, gonna squash it like Sigourney" ~Get Dat Fetus, Kill Dat Fetus - Sextina Aquafina
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fire810 posted...
Heineken14 posted...the_NGW posted...If the man wants the child and she does not, tough shit he doesn't get to be a father. Is he physically/emotionally attached to his sperm in the same way a woman is to a fetus? |
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Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "No problem, just get an abortion." Man: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child." Society: "Tough shit. You shouldn't have had sex if you weren't prepared to live with the consequences." Having a child doesn't end when the child is born. We're talking about something that greatly changes the lives of two people, yet we give all of the power to make decisions in this regard to just one party. That seems unfair. That said, I don't know that there's a clean solution to this problem. |
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darkace77450 posted...
Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child." nailed it
"This weapon, I am." - Paul Atreides
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lolife67 posted...
the_NGW posted...Barenziah Boy Toy posted...the_NGW posted...They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. If only it were that easy. A friend of mine went through hell trying to get custody of his daughter. The mother was addicted to cocaine and using his child support money to finance her habit, allowing their rapidly-growing baby daughter to go without new clothes for months at a time. Despite court-ordered visitation rights, she constantly used the threat of withholding time with the child as a means to control my friend. My friend DID make the courts aware of this, sending letters and emails on a daily basis, but every time a court appearance actually materialized, the mother would simply show up and cry in front of the judge, resulting in no changes to the cruelty against my friend and the neglect of his daughter. One such court appearance actually included the mother's parents, who literally told the judge that their daughter was a drug addict and that my friend should have custody for the good of the child. Didn't matter. The mother put on the tears, the court refused to drug test her, and nothing changed. This went on for years until the child was nearly four and my friend had managed to get another court date. This time, the mother showed up with her literal pimp and finally gave all custody rights to my friend. She had moved on from cocaine to crack and was now living in New York City, working as a literal crack whore. For FOUR YEARS the courts refused to intervene not only for the health of the little girl, but callously ignored the fact that my friend was on the verge of suicide from being kept away from his daughter while watching her suffer the neglect of a cruel, addict mother. The situation likely would not have ever changed had the mother not literally become a crack whore and lost whatever love she had left for her daughter. My friend is a loving father with a steady job, a home, and all the desire in the world to give the best life he can to his child. The only conceivable reason why the courts refused him custody is an antiquated, sexist notion that children always belong with their mothers.
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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darkace77450 posted...
Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child." You forgot about the option to give up a child for adoption, which some parents choose due to economic restraints.
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the_NGW posted...
LawnNinja posted...monkmith posted...father contributed to making the kid, even if he doesn't want one. could have worn a condom, or just not had sex the problem is your suggestion would lead to the same issue on the other side, with shithead men claiming after the fact that they never wanted the kid and should not have to pay for it. this would put a larger burden on women and the state, and since it puts a burden on the state the laws are written against it. if you want riskless sex, use a sex contract. i'm sure some lawyer somewhere has written one up that is legally binding.
People die when they are killed.
Among horse, Red Hare. Among men, Lu Bu. |
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fire810 posted...
darkace77450 posted...Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child." Yup, couldn't have said it better myself. |
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lolife67 posted...
the_NGW posted...So ultimately the man is the only one that has zero say and has no input into actually being a father or not, being responsible or not, it is entirely in the woman's hands. She can leave him struggling financially, she can take away his chance at being a father, he..can shut the f*** up and do what is decided for him. On the contrary, the number of single mothers out there argues that what he described is very common. If the father isn't involved in the child's life, he likely would have chosen not to be a father to begin with if that option had been available to him. The second consideration is that the single mother is choosing not to have the father involved (or as involved as he'd like) in the child's life, due to divorce, breakups, choosing to have a child when not in a relationship at all (hookups or donation), etc. Or third, the father is absent due to factors outside either parent's control - prison, homicide, etc.
He who laughs last, thinks fastest.
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fire810 posted...
darkace77450 posted...Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child." One party gets more power because it's her body. That's fair. The man has o be financially responsible because that's fair to the child
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
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I am in favour of men being able to do a legal abortion.
They sign papers where they remove their legal fatherhood. They can no longer have contact with the kid. There's no backsies. The kid can seek up their father when they're an adult of course (and the dad can lock the door). This is something that should be treated carefully and not be used just because. I recognise the holes in this, but I think a man should have a say regarding becoming a father or not.
Frog. You know life, life not all guessing games, frog. Sometimes, we have to care about the friends, especially friends who love cookies.
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You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
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LawnNinja posted...
lolife67 posted...the_NGW posted...Barenziah Boy Toy posted...the_NGW posted...They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. The difference in your scenario and the other is one of the child's living situation. It's much harder to prove a parent as unfit, as in your case, and proving that since the child lives with you then you shouldn't pay support. |
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- So a woman gets all of the say in whether or not she has a child...
LightSnake posted...You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
This I agree with. If a man doesn't want to be a father, that means giving up ALL rights as a parent, not just getting out of child support.
LightSnake posted...The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
The fuck? This sounds exactly like the argument of a pro-lifer. Just replace "man" with "woman" and "father" with "mother" and you sound just like a religious bigot."It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu KrishnamurtiLawnNinja posted...LightSnake posted...
You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
This I agree with. If a man doesn't want to be a father, that means giving up ALL rights as a parent, not just getting out of child support.
LightSnake posted...The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
The fuck? This sounds exactly like the argument of a pro-lifer. Just replace the word "father" with the word "mother" and you come off as a religious bigot.
The difference is it's not the mans body. Yes, if there is another life to be responsible for based on the woman's decision, then he had a part in making it and he's going to be partly responsible.Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard CohenLightSnake posted...fire810 posted...
darkace77450 posted...
Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "No problem, just get an abortion."
Man: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "Tough shit. You shouldn't have had sex if you weren't prepared to live with the consequences."
Having a child doesn't end when the child is born. We're talking about something that greatly changes the lives of two people, yet we give all of the power to make decisions in this regard to just one party. That seems unfair. That said, I don't know that there's a clean solution to this problem.
nailed it
One party gets more power because it's her body. That's fair.
The man has o be financially responsible because that's fair to the child
So what is fair to the man?
Screw him?GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, ElexLightSnake posted...You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
I didn't know that. Tbh I wasn't advocating giving up just child support. I was advocating giving up fatherhood.
I disagree with that. That standard should in that case be held for women as well, as long as it wasn't rape or issue with the protection.
(However, a man can be raped. A man can perform safe sex with condom but it breaks. A man can be tricked by the woman claiming she is on birth control)Frog. You know life, life not all guessing games, frog. Sometimes, we have to care about the friends, especially friends who love cookies.Traptin3days posted...LightSnake posted...
You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
I didn't know that.
I disagree with that. That standard should in that case be held for women as well, as long as it wasn't rape or issue with the protection.
(However, a man can be raped. A man can perform safe sex with condom but it breaks. A man can be tricked by the woman claiming she is on birth control)
Being raped should be a very, very special circumstance. If a condom breaks, best advice is to use the morning after pill ASAP.Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard CohenWomen can give a child up for adoption in many cases without even telling the father she was ever pregnant (i.e. shirking her financial responsibilities). If women can give the kid up without financial penalty, men should be able to as well. Women are also the sole persons (non rape cases), who decide what goes into their bodies. Pregnancy is a biological "affliction" in a sense, and her choice to have sex, knowing what might happen to HER body. Her body, her choice, her responsibility. With full choices--especially when you have all of them--from sex, to birth control, to abortion, to adoption-- comes full responsibility.
I'm not sure if I even believe the above argument I just made, but it is possible to make one.By evolving consciousness, nature has become conscious of itself.LightSnake posted...Traptin3days posted...
LightSnake posted...
You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
I didn't know that.
I disagree with that. That standard should in that case be held for women as well, as long as it wasn't rape or issue with the protection.
(However, a man can be raped. A man can perform safe sex with condom but it breaks. A man can be tricked by the woman claiming she is on birth control)
Being raped should be a very, very special circumstance. If a condom breaks, best advice is to use the morning after pill ASAP.
Yes. We are talking about special circumstances tbh. Not just "oops I got her pregnant gg I'mma flee the country and knock up another girl" circumstances (just like abortion shouldn't be used as a birth control thing).
I agree with morning pill. I am just pointing out that the guy hasn't agreed to be a father because of having sex. If he practices unsafe sex, then laughs on him. The condom breaking (without them knowing) is the weakest point, but stillFrog. You know life, life not all guessing games, frog. Sometimes, we have to care about the friends, especially friends who love cookies.LightSnake posted...You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
Which is bull.
A woman's say to get out of a pregnancy or not was the sex. It works both ways.Jahgro posted...fire810 posted...
darkace77450 posted...
Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "No problem, just get an abortion."
Man: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "Tough shit. You shouldn't have had sex if you weren't prepared to live with the consequences."
Having a child doesn't end when the child is born. We're talking about something that greatly changes the lives of two people, yet we give all of the power to make decisions in this regard to just one party. That seems unfair. That said, I don't know that there's a clean solution to this problem.
nailed it
Yup, couldn't have said it better myself.
A disgusting double standard indeed.
If the rationale for pro-choice in the first place is to give people control of their future post-sex, and pro-choice advocates want to support sex as an activity and not as something that is done just to procreate, then it makes absolutely no sense that men are financially liable for a baby while having no choice in whether that baby is born or not.TheShadowViper posted...If the rationale for pro-choice in the first place is to give people control of their future post-sex, and pro-choice advocates want to support sex as an activity and not as something that is done just to procreate, then it makes absolutely no sense that men are financially liable for a baby while having no choice in whether that baby is born or not.
On the other hand, if the rationale for pro-choice is to give people control of what happens with and to their bodies, then it makes perfect sense for men to have no choice in whether babies are born or not, regardless of the future financial consequences.Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.darkace77450 posted...Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "No problem, just get an abortion."
Man: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "Tough shit. You shouldn't have had sex if you weren't prepared to live with the consequences."
Getting Pregnant, and Getting an abortion IS the harsh consequence. You DO realize that getting an abortion, or going through pregnancy isn't some walk in the park, right?You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Barenziah Boy Toy posted...Getting Pregnant, and Getting an abortion IS the harsh consequence. You DO realize that getting an abortion, or going through pregnancy isn't some walk in the park, right?
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.kozlo100 posted...TheShadowViper posted...
If the rationale for pro-choice in the first place is to give people control of their future post-sex, and pro-choice advocates want to support sex as an activity and not as something that is done just to procreate, then it makes absolutely no sense that men are financially liable for a baby while having no choice in whether that baby is born or not.
On the other hand, if the rationale for pro-choice is to give people control of what happens with and to their bodies, then it makes perfect sense for men to have no choice in whether babies are born or not, regardless of the future financial consequences.
If we accept the proposition that men should not have any choice in whether a baby is born or not, then we also accept that the woman has control over the future of that child. So why should a man, who does not want a child, be shackled by a contract due to a sexual encounter, while a woman who has all the power of choice is not?
Sorry, it isn't fair to use a sexual encounter as a contract for one sex and not for the other.Jahgro posted...Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Barenziah Boy Toy posted...TheShadowViper posted...
while a woman who has all the power of choice is not?
WTF are you talking about? She IS shackled to a contract to take care of the child.
No she isn't, since she has the choice of life or death for that child. The man has no such choice.
You are completely wrong.
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
Do I think a woman should have the power to choose whether to have a baby or not? Yes, but they should be solely financially responsible for the child if the father does not want to have it.TheShadowViper posted...No she isn't, since she has the choice of life or death for that child. The man has no such choice.
That choice is whether to protect her body or not. Just as you have a choice to kick a guest out of your home or not - even if they have no other place to stay.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Barenziah Boy Toy posted...Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.Jahgro posted...I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.
Sure, as soon as he's able to get pregnant, or we are able to raise fetuses out of the womb.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Jahgro posted...Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.
That is beyond absurd. You’re letting a man have final say over what a woman can do with her body.[NO BARKLEY NO PEACE]Carmelo posted...I actually think the final choice being left to the actual person who has to have a fucking human being grow inside of her for 9 months and then push it out her vagina is a totes fair deal, anyone else?
Agreed.
I get the idea of the "double standard" but, as a man, I'm perfectly fine with it. I get a lot of perks from being a male that I won't begrudge the very few that don't go my way.MegatokyoEd posted...Jahgro posted...
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.
That is beyond absurd. You’re letting a man have final say over what a woman can do with her body.
Logically it isn't absurd at all if you go with the logic that having sex creates a binding contract between individuals and the government.
A man and a woman have sex. The man is now financially responsible should the woman decide to have a child. The woman has the power of choice as to whether this child is born or not, and thus is not bound by any obligation from the act of sex.
The controversy is not whether a woman should have the ability to choose whether to have a kid or not, it is whether or not it is just to shackle a man with an obligation (financially) to an event that he has no control over.
And let's stop pretending that the financial burden of a child is not significant. If women want the power of choice when it comes to whether or not a child should live, they should bare the responsibility of that decision themselves as well.TheShadowViper posted...A man and a woman have sex. The man is now financially responsible should the woman decide to have a child.
A woman is also financially responsible if she decides to continue the pregnancy - even if men get custody.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}TheShadowViper posted...The controversy is not whether a woman should have the ability to choose whether to have a kid or not, it is whether or not it is just to shackle a man with an obligation (financially) to an event that he has no control over.
He HAS control over it. His input stops at the woman's body. Just as a wife can't force a husband to have a vasectomy if he doesn't want to.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Barenziah Boy Toy posted...TheShadowViper posted...
A man and a woman have sex. The man is now financially responsible should the woman decide to have a child.
A woman is also financially responsible if she decides to continue the pregnancy - even if men get custody.
Irrelevant and you know it. The woman wants the child if she brings it to term, and in fact makes the conscious choice not to terminate it. A man has no such choice, but must still bare the responsibility if the woman chooses to have the child, even if he does not want it. If the tables are turned, and a man wants the child but the woman does not, the man has no choice in whether or not that life is terminated while simultaneously shouldering a financial burden should the women's choice be to continue and have the child.
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...TheShadowViper posted...
The controversy is not whether a woman should have the ability to choose whether to have a kid or not, it is whether or not it is just to shackle a man with an obligation (financially) to an event that he has no control over.
He HAS control over it. His input stops at the woman's body. Just as a wife can't force a husband to have a vasectomy if he doesn't want to.
Ah so now you are saying that sex is a binding obligation for a man? Uh oh you are approaching the complete destruction of your argument. Let the countdown begin!TheShadowViper posted...Irrelevant and you know it.
Completely relevant and you fucking know it. You just refuse to acknowledge that child custody is a separate issue from bodily integrity.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}lolife67 posted...Carmelo posted...
I actually think the final choice being left to the actual person who has to have a fucking human being grow inside of her for 9 months and then push it out her vagina is a totes fair deal, anyone else?
Agreed.
I get the idea of the "double standard" but, as a man, I'm perfectly fine with it. I get a lot of perks from being a male that I won't begrudge the very few that don't go my way.
it’s not a double standard because the burden that men and women go through carrying a child to term is not equal
women: stomach expands by the size of a literal person, have to cut back on physical activity for nearly a year, also have to watch what you eat/drink, can’t smoke or have alcohol, and then have to go through the actual process of childbirth
men: literally nothing changes
yeahThe_Undying_84 posted...People throwing around the word double standard like it's automatically a bad thing...........
Two different things SHOULD be held to two different standards. It makes sense for abortion to be a double standard because it doesn't affect a man and a woman equally.
That's why I used quotes around the phrase.Carmelo posted...lolife67 posted...
Carmelo posted...
I actually think the final choice being left to the actual person who has to have a fucking human being grow inside of her for 9 months and then push it out her vagina is a totes fair deal, anyone else?
Agreed.
I get the idea of the "double standard" but, as a man, I'm perfectly fine with it. I get a lot of perks from being a male that I won't begrudge the very few that don't go my way.
it’s not a double standard because the burden that men and women go through carrying a child to term is not equal
women: stomach expands by the size of a literal person, have to cut back on physical activity for nearly a year, also have to watch what you eat/drink, can’t smoke or have alcohol, and then have to go through the actual process of childbirth
men: literally nothing changes
yeah
See above :)Barenziah Boy Toy posted...TheShadowViper posted...
Irrelevant and you know it.
Completely relevant and you fucking know it. You just refuse to acknowledge that child custody is a separate issue from bodily integrity.
Dodge!
Duck !
Dip!
Dive !
...and Dodge!
Sorry you were caught in a logical bind, escape is not possible. Answer the questions previously asked and stop attempting to dodge because you know you're approaching logical armageddon with your backwards thinking.Carmelo posted...women: stomach expands by the size of a literal person, have to cut back on physical activity for nearly a year, also have to watch what you eat/drink, can’t smoke or have alcohol, and then have to go through the actual process of childbirth
1. Well, a very small person, but ok.
2. Not hard for most I'm sure, this will impact different people differently.
3. As most people should.
4. Oh no, they can't ingest poison.
5. Yeah, that one sucks.
Carmelo posted...men: literally nothing changes
Their wallet is suddenly about a thousand times lighter. They also go through a great deal of psychological stress as well.
Not trying to downplay that pregnancy does have an impact on a woman's body, it certainly does, but it's not nothing on the man either. And if she chooses to abort while he wants the child, you don't think something like that could mentally or emotionally break him?GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, ElexThe whole thing is a crappy situation for everyone involved.
For what its worth, I support men having paternal rights for unborn children. But at the end of the day, the whole "its MY body!" thing is going to win out.
Even though it takes 2 people to make the kid, and if one doesn't want it, the only thing determining whether the baby dies or if 18 years of debt are in the future is whether the person with that feeling has a vagina or not.
Unfair, yes.
Is there a better solution? Not really, until we develop technology to grow the baby in a tube or implant it in the dad or something, it's going to be a messy situation anytime someone wakes up in the morning and says "wow i really dont wanna have a kid lol"^.^Icewitch posted...Even though it takes 2 people to make the kid, and if one doesn't want it, the only thing determining whether the baby dies or if 18 years of debt are in the future is whether the person with that feeling has a vagina or not.
And a uterus, and a womb, and a birth canal, and hormones, and the willingness to house a child inside their body for 9 months.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Not requiring fathers to pay child support would punish the innocent child, not the woman. I thought conservatives were all about protecting the innocent children? Of course, I'd be in favour of allowing fathers to not pay child support if conservatives were willing to put some tax money towards helping these children who would go without because of it.~Hivebent4Life
3DS FC: 5069-3910-2647Icewitch posted...I didn't know you supported abstinence.
I support everyone's INDIVIDUAL right to abstinence. That has nothing to do with the policy of using public funds to provide abstinence-ONLY education.You don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}Barenziah Boy Toy posted...Icewitch posted...
I didn't know you supported abstinence.
I support everyone's INDIVIDUAL right to abstinence. That has nothing to do with the policy of using public funds to provide abstinence-ONLY education.
But you're supporting policy whose answer to "what about men's rights?"is "abstinence, duh".^.^the_NGW posted...Carmelo posted...
women: stomach expands by the size of a literal person, have to cut back on physical activity for nearly a year, also have to watch what you eat/drink, can’t smoke or have alcohol, and then have to go through the actual process of childbirth
1. Well, a very small person, but ok.
2. Not hard for most I'm sure, this will impact different people differently.
3. As most people should.
4. Oh no, they can't ingest poison.
5. Yeah, that one sucks.
Carmelo posted...men: literally nothing changes
Their wallet is suddenly about a thousand times lighter. They also go through a great deal of psychological stress as well.
Not trying to downplay that pregnancy does have an impact on a woman's body, it certainly does, but it's not nothing on the man either. And if she chooses to abort while he wants the child, you don't think something like that could mentally or emotionally break him?
is this a fucking joke? I have never seen someone so severely downplay the burdens of pregnancy while fucking asserting the burdens of the “psychological stress” men go through as if they’re anywhere in the same universe of fucking equivalent
and nice bonus assuming the woman is lucky enough to be financially provided for by the man so SHE doesn’t have to worry about her wallet getting lighterhivebent4life posted...Not requiring fathers to pay child support would punish the innocent child, not the woman. I thought conservatives were all about protecting the innocent children? Of course, I'd be in favour of allowing fathers to not pay child support if conservatives were willing to put some tax money towards helping these children who would go without because of it.
Why is it always a conservative vs liberal thing, how about just a human thing?GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, ElexBarenziah Boy Toy posted...Icewitch posted...
Yet none of that on its own can create a child out of thin air. No ONE person can just make a child.
Don't put your sperm into another person then.
Don't stick a dick in your pussy then.GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, ElexMegatokyoEd posted...Jahgro posted...
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.
That is beyond absurd. You’re letting a man have final say over what a woman can do with her body.
No, a man and a woman would get equal say. Why is equality so hard for you to understand?the_NGW posted...hivebent4life posted...
Not requiring fathers to pay child support would punish the innocent child, not the woman. I thought conservatives were all about protecting the innocent children? Of course, I'd be in favour of allowing fathers to not pay child support if conservatives were willing to put some tax money towards helping these children who would go without because of it.
Why is it always a conservative vs liberal thing, how about just a human thing?
It's mainly conservatives who would cry about having to lose a few extra bucks each month to make sure innocent children grow up with food and shelter.~Hivebent4Life
3DS FC: 5069-3910-2647- Boards
- Politics
- So a woman gets all of the say in whether or not she has a child...
Jahgro posted...MegatokyoEd posted...
Jahgro posted...
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.
That is beyond absurd. You’re letting a man have final say over what a woman can do with her body.
No, a man and a woman would get equal say. Why is equality so hard for you to understand?
And if they cannot agree?~Hivebent4Life
3DS FC: 5069-3910-2647Traptin3days posted...LightSnake posted...
You can already surrender your parental rights. The court has to accept them, though. Just trying to get out of child support might not fly.
The man's say in becoming a father or not was the sex.
I didn't know that. Tbh I wasn't advocating giving up just child support. I was advocating giving up fatherhood.
I disagree with that. That standard should in that case be held for women as well, as long as it wasn't rape or issue with the protection.
(However, a man can be raped. A man can perform safe sex with condom but it breaks. A man can be tricked by the woman claiming she is on birth control)
You didn't know that because he made it up. No, a man can not unilaterally give up parental rights as a means of getting out of child support. Case law on the matter is clear: even if the mother has been convicted of rape for the act of conceiving the child, the father is still responsible for child support. Usually it happens in the case of statutory rape but it has happened that adult men were raped and were required to pay their rapist child support.
As the Kansas Supreme Court put it "Nowhere does the law in this state suggest that the mother's 'wrongdoing' can operate as a setoff or bar to the father's liability for child support." - and yes, the actual court decision put quotation marks around "wrongdoing" to describe the statutory rape of a 13 year old boy.He who laughs last, thinks fastest.Jahgro posted...MegatokyoEd posted...
Jahgro posted...
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
Jahgro posted...
Having an unwanted child for the rest of your life is a far far worse punishment than either of those.
So you agree that she should get an abortion if she wants, then.
I agree a man should be able to have an equal say in any and all abortions yes.
That is beyond absurd. You’re letting a man have final say over what a woman can do with her body.
No, a man and a woman would get equal say. Why is equality so hard for you to understand?
They should, but its not physically possible to have equal rights to an unborn child.
You have 2 people, and if they both have 2 conflicting opinions on what should be done with the child, yet only 1 outcome can actually happen.
Like I said, I'd like to see men have more paternal rights. I just don't know how it can be done.^.^I don't think it was ever implied that ONLY women have a say on whether to have a child or not, or if they have more power to them, since if a man doesn't want a child but the woman does, he should have a discussion with his spouse BEFORE they agree to this stuff in the first place (I mean, they're in a relationship, this means they care about each other, and thus, would take reasonable steps to resolve this before it even becomes a problem).
The OP is talking about an extreme situation and frankly, if they have a disagreement when the child was born, both should have thought this through a lot more thoroughly and thus, both are at fault here.I'm Baby Luigi's biggest fan, a rather cantankerous female.
Left 4 Dead 2 is the best Mario-based shooter.Icewitch posted...The whole thing is a crappy situation for everyone involved.
For what its worth, I support men having paternal rights for unborn children. But at the end of the day, the whole "its MY body!" thing is going to win out.
Even though it takes 2 people to make the kid, and if one doesn't want it, the only thing determining whether the baby dies or if 18 years of debt are in the future is whether the person with that feeling has a vagina or not.
Unfair, yes.
Is there a better solution? Not really, until we develop technology to grow the baby in a tube or implant it in the dad or something, it's going to be a messy situation anytime someone wakes up in the morning and says "wow i really dont wanna have a kid lol"
The simple fact is this. There is no real way to make things more fair without putting an unfair burden on more vulnerable parties, save for trying to make courts more fair when it comes to child custody. Financial abortions put the child at a disadvantage on what their mother did, forced abortion / forced to carry over rides the womens right to bodily autonomy.
In society, or in life in general, we just have to accept certain risks in order to life our live. The risk of getting a girl pregnant is just own of those risks. You can minimize those risks by wearing a condom or a vasectomy, but you just have to accept the fact that there is always going to be risks"Hey bridesmaid, love the beard! Give's me something to hang onto!!"- Lord FlasheartCyborgSage00x0 posted...I remember discussing this issue in a topic a while back. Like, what if the condom broke? And the woman absolutely wanted to keep it? It's pretty inane that a man could be forced into child payments for something like that.
Face it: the family courts see you as an ATM and not much more. And if you don't cough up the cash on time as specified, they can jail you indefinitely. Even if you physically cannot pay the amount specified due to unemployment, underemployment, or disability it doesn't matter. Pay up or else.He who laughs last, thinks fastest.the_NGW posted...If the man doesn't want the child and she does, he still has to support it financially going forward.
If the man wants the child and she does not, tough shit he doesn't get to be a father.
If they both want it, well that's awesome, congrats to the happy couple and their child.
I'm very much pro-choice, but men really do get completely dicked over when it comes to the whole situation.
I get that it is a woman's body, she has to go through much more than the man does when it comes to pregnancy, but if she gets to make the call that he does not get to be a father, than why does she also get to make the call that he has to be responsible for a child he does not want? It takes two to tango, as it were. They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it. But if only one does? The one that gets to make the choice forces the other to regardless.
Then, without the slightest trace of self-awareness, feminists respond, "Well, if a man didn't want to have the kid, he shouldn't have had sex!" while forgetting that was the anti-abortion argument used against them.
Patriotwolf posted...Jx1010 posted...
They only want equality when it favors them.
Feminism in a nutshell.(\/)(\/)|-|
In Zeus We Trust: All Others Pay CashIn non-marginal cases, the man and the woman should split the costs associated with the pregnancy along an equitable divide (the women does bear a much heavier physical burden).
However, the woman must be able to reach a decision on whether she wants to carry the pregnancy to term or not within a reasonable time metric... this would afford the man a reasonable amount of time (given the same metric) to agree to or opt out of post-pregnancy considerations (aka baby) if he and she disagreed on wanting to carry the pregnancy to term.
The fetus isn't a baby, ergo not a human life; it has no rights nor need of support until such time "personhood" is conferred upon it. There is nothing to preemptively coerce a man into sacrificing a significant portion of his monetary livelihood if the "person in question" isn't even in existence yet. Moreover, since the woman enjoys the sole privilege of determining whether or not the pregnancy is carried to term or not, is it not fair that the man be afforded an opportunity to have an equitable "choice" too?
*If he chooses to opt out of potential paternal responsibilities, he loses any/all parental rights associated with the as-yet-to-be person (aka future baby).
*I'm strongly Pro-Life, by the way. The above argument is just the logical extenuation of the Pro-Choice position.Classically liberal, independent moderate. US Marine and Pianist.
[Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/AlesandrosX?feature=mhee]I think both parties should have a say, but if you choose not to use a condom, it seems you have already made a choice of some sort. And as a woman, if you don’t want to use birth control and if you don’t see the man with a condom, you can always choose to not have sex, or do it some other way where the possibility of a child is non-existent.You thought it was Zoroark, but it was I, DIttO!Icewitch posted...They should, but its not physically possible to have equal rights to an unborn child.
You have 2 people, and if they both have 2 conflicting opinions on what should be done with the child, yet only 1 outcome can actually happen.
You can have a separation of the child from the father. If the father wants an abortion, and the mother doesn't, no abortion and the father owes nothing when the child is born.
If the mother wants an abortion, and the father doesn't, no abortion and the mother owes nothing when the child is born.
The best solution.Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but child support isn't about maintaining equality between the sexes. It's about caring for the most vulnerable, which is the child. It also shouldn't be looked at as a punishment but that's another conversation.FFX: NSGNS, KO, YO, WO, LO*, AOOSG, ROOSG*, RODA*, TOOSGNC, TODA*
*In progressJahgro posted...Icewitch posted...
They should, but its not physically possible to have equal rights to an unborn child.
You have 2 people, and if they both have 2 conflicting opinions on what should be done with the child, yet only 1 outcome can actually happen.
You can have a separation of the child from the father. If the father wants an abortion, and the mother doesn't, no abortion and the father owes nothing when the child is born.
If the mother wants an abortion, and the father doesn't, no abortion and the mother owes nothing when the child is born.
The best solution.
That's a terrible solution for the child and the mother.
username191 posted...Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but child support isn't about maintaining equality between the sexes. It's about caring for the most vulnerable, which is the child. It also shouldn't be looked at as a punishment but that's another conversation.
MRA types either refuse to grasp this or don't care.bloopAre we arguing that men should have the right to order a woman to have a medical procedure that could leave her sterile for life or that a man should force a woman to carry a baby to term?
I feel like we're regressing here.You guys hate SJWs? Blame your favorite developers for pandering to white men for the past 30 years.fire810 posted...Heineken14 posted...
the_NGW posted...
If the man wants the child and she does not, tough shit he doesn't get to be a father.
Wonder how many people realize just how absurd this sounds.... probably not many, hence they think it's a "good point."
so its not his body, his sperm?
He voluntarily have up his sperm. If he wanted to keep it, a condom while have worked wondersYou guys hate SJWs? Blame your favorite developers for pandering to white men for the past 30 years.omg why is this 3 pagesMy Mario Maker Levels
https://supermariomakerbookmark.nintendo.net/profile/untrustful?type=posteddarkace77450 posted...Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "No problem, just get an abortion."
Man: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "Tough shit. You shouldn't have had sex if you weren't prepared to live with the consequences."
Having a child doesn't end when the child is born. We're talking about something that greatly changes the lives of two people, yet we give all of the power to make decisions in this regard to just one party. That seems unfair. That said, I don't know that there's a clean solution to this problem.
well put. its a hard world for a man. nobody gives a damn. thats just how it is.rest in peace Chris Arnett, playersupreme.
you will be missed. love you man.AlphaOmega786 posted...Simple answer -
Shut the fuck up and support your kids. Whether you wanted them or not, you still got the girl pregnant.
You did the crime, now do the time.
You realize the reverse is 100% applicable, right?GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, ElexBarenziah Boy Toy posted...the_NGW posted...
You realize the reverse is 100% applicable, right?
A woman is already being punished simply by getting pregnant.
notsureifsrs.jpgGP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, Elexyoung_flip posted...darkace77450 posted...
Woman: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "No problem, just get an abortion."
Man: "I'm not emotionally or financially ready to have a child."
Society: "Tough shit. You shouldn't have had sex if you weren't prepared to live with the consequences."
Having a child doesn't end when the child is born. We're talking about something that greatly changes the lives of two people, yet we give all of the power to make decisions in this regard to just one party. That seems unfair. That said, I don't know that there's a clean solution to this problem.
well put. its a hard world for a man. nobody gives a damn. thats just how it is.
Yep, this. As soon as the beta male cucks in this thread who are ignoring this come to realize it, the sooner their eyes will be opened to just how little society cares for them. It is something all of us men have to come to realize sooner or later. It just takes a little longer for some than it does others.
Wake up beta male cucks. No one gives a fuck about you unlike women who have the world in their hands and can pretty much do whatever they want.If you care at all for gaming, you will NEVER support microtransactions or loot boxes.The_Undying_84 posted...That's a terrible solution for the child and the mother.
It's the best solution to protect the rights of everybody involved. Not every solution has to give the mother a golden platter solution.
Abortions aren't the ideal solution for the child, yet I'm still pro choice.Jahgro posted...The_Undying_84 posted...
That's a terrible solution for the child and the mother.
It's the best solution to protect the rights of everybody involved. Not every solution has to give the mother a golden platter solution.
Abortions aren't the ideal solution for the child, yet I'm still pro choice.
Abortions are a completely neutral solution for the child. The child never exists if they're aborted.
And no, it's a solution which completely spits in the face of the woman's right to bodily autonomy.bloopThe_Undying_84 posted...the_NGW posted...
Why doesn't the man deserve financial autonomy?
A. Because the child needs to be cared for.
B. Because finances aren't as important as bodies.
A. Mommy has a wallet too.
B. Arguable, hard to take care of one without the other.GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, ElexThe_Undying_84 posted...the_NGW posted...
Why doesn't the man deserve financial autonomy?
A. Because the child needs to be cared for.
B. Because finances aren't as important as bodies.
So you're saying the woman shouldnt abort the baby and that the babies life and body is more important than finances.Jx1010 posted...So you're saying the woman shouldnt abort the baby and that the babies life and body is more important than finances.
Nope. Here's the priority list:
A person's body/life
A parasitic dependent's life
A person's financesYou don't need a treaty to have free trade. M Rothbard
{Self-Hating Token Asian of the Ivory Tower's Zionist Elite}HARD to take care of your body without finances.
Impossible to have finances without a body.
And you're whining about the very concept of having to pay child support. I doubt you've thought about the specifics of child support calculation a second in your life; you sure as hell haven't brought it up in this topic.blooplolife67 posted...the_NGW posted...
Barenziah Boy Toy posted...
the_NGW posted...
They should both have to be financially responsible if they choose that they both want it.
Hey num num, the WOMAN IS ALREADY financially responsible by caring for the fucking child.
If it was the man that had sole custody, then the woman would need to pay child support as well.
That's why my sister's husband is solely taking care of his child with his ex while she literally does nothing, living entirely off of the child support he pays?
Honestly, that's your brother-in-law's fault. He should sue for sole custody and make the court aware of the situation.
More than likely wouldn't fix anything family court still heavily favors the woman unless it is a blantely obvious case of child abuse. Super depresses my CPS agent friend.Put your grasses on...The_Undying_84 posted...HARD to take care of your body without finances.
Impossible to have finances without a body.
And you're whining about the very concept of having to pay child support. I doubt you've thought about the specifics of child support calculation a second in your life; you sure as hell haven't brought it up in this topic.
Considering my dad had to starve himself because of that financial burden so he could feed me the weeks he had me growing up you can kindly stfu.GP Vs 2016: Second Place Winner
PSN: ourtheNGW, Now Playing: Pokken Tournament DX, Dragonball Xenoverse 2, Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle, Cuphead, Elexthe_NGW posted...The_Undying_84 posted...
HARD to take care of your body without finances.
Impossible to have finances without a body.
And you're whining about the very concept of having to pay child support. I doubt you've thought about the specifics of child support calculation a second in your life; you sure as hell haven't brought it up in this topic.
Considering my dad had to starve himself because of that financial burden so he could feed me the weeks he had me growing up you can kindly stfu.
So you're saying you'd rather you have starved then, I guess?
I doubt your dad feels the same way.bloop
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